Robert Trout (00:01.216)
Hello and welcome to the Parenting Problems Today podcast. Today you’re joined by myself, Robert Trout and Mary Zaunbrecher from the Parent Trainers Team. And today we’re coming to you with a subject that we’re gonna step into here. And we’re calling it, Choosing a Therapist Wisely. And the reason for this title is we want to bring a discussion into the dynamic of a family that
They’re looking for help and you know on this podcast We talk a lot about building teams and the importance of building teams at home But one of the things that we just have to be honest about okay, and this is a little bit of a confession But it’s also an acknowledgement in this is that sometimes the people that you bring in to help Become a part of the problem
And that doesn’t mean that they’re making a mistake or that they’ve done something wrong, but very often, especially when it comes to a therapist or a psychologist or someone in a helping profession, families kind of jump in and like, oh, you’re going to be the one to help us. But they do it haphazardly. They maybe don’t think about certain things. So that’s the point of today’s conversation is to talk about the considerations.
when choosing the person or people that you’re adding to the situation. Because that’s the truth. The truth is, is when you build a team, you add new personalities, new opinions, new work styles, new dynamics on so many fronts that families sometimes take for granted that it’s going to be a little complicated at times.
And you might add someone that, and this is that truth element to all of this, you might add someone that eventually you might need to fire from the process. And again, that doesn’t mean they’ve done anything wrong. It just might mean that they weren’t the right fit for the actual goal or for the family container or dynamic. I mean, so many considerations here. So we’re going to step into it.
Robert Trout (02:23.484)
And Mary, I’m going to pass it immediately to you to kind of start this ball rolling around. When a family starts to consider working with someone, what are some basics that they need to consider when interviewing or looking for that person?
Mary (02:41.046)
Yeah. So I mean, you know, being a therapist myself, right? We both have backgrounds in this. Part of the first thing I say to anyone seeking therapeutic support is like, I want to know that I’m a good fit for you. I want to know that you’re a good fit for the way that I work. And I want to keep checking in on is this working for you?
or what more do you need? And so this idea of being really intentional behind, yeah, stepping into therapy and saying, what are my therapeutic goals or what are the therapeutic goals that I have for my child and finding them a therapist? What are the ways that we are going to work together or not work together? And there’s a huge consideration there. I have so many parents I work with nowadays. Their therapist won’t tell me what they talked about. Their therapist won’t talk to me.
Right? And that is a huge consideration when looking at what are the boundaries that this therapist has over working with adolescents? What makes therapy effective for an adolescent or teen in terms of parental involvement? Right? How are you intentional about that and the system? Does that person work in a practice where maybe you all go to family therapy? And so the professionals are actually working together.
to make sure things are aligned, right? And so just this idea of, you know, we go into therapy so often with the goal of relief, right? And of course we all deserve, you know, moments of that and figuring out how to create that in our lives more often for ourselves. But then truly being able to say, what’s my intention long-term as well? And what’s my intention within this family system?
especially.
Robert Trout (04:36.968)
Absolutely, yeah. And all those are great beginner points that a lot of families ignore when they step in. Very often they’re like, okay, who takes my insurance? And who’s available locally? Or maybe there is no one available locally and they start just to look for any random person online without doing some due diligence around personality type, the type of therapy.
that this person is trained in and kind of speaks to and kind of steps into. But as you said, some of the biggest pitfalls that we run into very often with the family is a family that’s like, we’ve had a therapist for three, four years. And that’s how this topic actually came up. I’ll share with everyone that I was talking with a family. They had been working with the therapist for four years. And I just asked them a very simple question.
What is the most impactful thing you have learned from them that’s made a difference in your family dynamic? And they were completely silent. They couldn’t answer that question. And it’s like, so what you did is put yourself in a scenario that you’re doing some form of therapy. I’m not even sure what type of therapy they were doing, but the therapy and the technique that this therapist is using probably developed a really lovely relationship with the family.
But there was no education, seemingly, from the outside. And to be fair, I don’t know everything that’s changed or shifted. And sometimes a family doesn’t know either. But there is a dynamic that for this specific family, they definitely want the behaviors within the whole family system to change. Their ultimate goal is to learn how to interact with each other and with their child.
in order to have a more peaceful home. Well, that’s the goal. Then you went to therapy for four years towards this goal, but nothing changed. That for us, for me, for all of us, I feel is a pretty steady red flag. So I think that’s important for the listener here to know is this is a very common thing that they think they’re doing something, right?
Mary (06:35.405)
Right.
Mary (07:00.77)
Right.
Robert Trout (07:01.558)
but they’re not actually changing.
Mary (07:05.516)
Yeah, kind of what you’re speaking to is this idea of like, is the therapist directive enough? Are they giving us, you know, goals for the week and following up with that? Or is this a therapist that we kind of just get into the same cycle of just like, here’s my weekend review, right? And so, yeah, really being intentional about what, will this therapist push me in the way that I need to be pushed, right? And
as humans, most of us need accountability, right? Most of us need the assignment. And then for someone to say, did you do the assignment? And then to work on why we didn’t do the assignment or how the assignment went, right? And so, yeah, I think when families especially are looking for change, like, is that person going to hold you accountable to that change, rather than just be someone to decompress with, which let’s be honest, we all need that as well, right?
Robert Trout (07:41.354)
you
Robert Trout (08:00.811)
Yes.
Mary (08:02.55)
Yeah, someone who’s just objective and can listen. But if you are noticing that the day-to-day stressors are not changing, evolving, shifting, you know, then there is a question to ask yourself there about like, is this working for me? Is this working for my family? And sometimes it’s not even about switching therapists. It’s just about saying like, hey, I’m ready to move into something different with you, right? Can you do this for me?
Robert Trout (08:32.076)
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, I mean, one of the things, I mean, I’ve worked in the therapeutic field for the majority of my life at this point. And there’s a very important question I learned from a supervisor, a clinical supervisor, years and years ago, where he basically said, if your client doesn’t consider firing you,
Mary (08:32.778)
And sometimes it is not working therapists, right?
Robert Trout (09:00.776)
If your client has never been angry at you, if your client is not showing up with emotion and struggle, then you are not pushing them. You are not finding the edge of growth and change. And I always love that message because as a therapist then it was like, my job is not to be loved or liked.
My client is asking me to help them with something. Now, that’s where in this conversation, I feel like we need to be very specific. If you are going to therapy to have a safe place to talk about emotion and vent and just release steam, then that is a goal that is identified for you as a parent that this is why I go to do this. And I hope that is hopeful or helpful.
for you. But I want to be specific if your goal is to change the behaviors of a tween teen or young adult where they’re in therapy and hopefully you’re in therapy and hopefully you’re both are all in therapy together even with one person or a team. As you put this together there then needs to be the acknowledgement there saying okay the goals are different in each room.
You can have your time to vent and release that energy and steam. And like you said, that’s very important. And for a lot of people, that’s what they’re looking for. However, then to get mad and say nothing’s changed in four years is a little unfair if that’s not the stated goal. Because if your goal is to change, that’s where that internal lesson comes in, where it’s like, well, then you need a therapist that you’re going to get mad at.
you’re going to get homework and assignments from that include like weekly, like I’m going to be different this week and have this person hold me accountable to the goal that I chose. Sometimes, and this is a nuance, you do need to understand that the therapist, part of that role should be in my opinion, for them to say, okay, I’m going to point out to you when you fail.
Robert Trout (11:27.912)
at what you’re attempting to change. Because guess what? You’re gonna fail over and over and over again until you learn a new style, skill or ability to integrate into your daily life, into your family system, especially when we talk about like what we do, right? The parent coaching element to it. I mean, I’ve had parents scream at me as a parent coach and it’s like, good.
Good, get it out, get it out. They’re like, what do you mean get it out? It’s like, I want you to be angry because you’re starting to realize that what you’re doing isn’t working. And you’re mad at me because I’m saying what you’re doing isn’t working. So if we can both acknowledge that what you’re doing, what you’re doing isn’t working, now something can actually begin to shift. And that awareness in that relationship can create significant change.
Mary (12:15.054)
Yeah.
Mary (12:21.302)
Absolutely. Yeah, you know, we’re talking about like going to therapy for emotional support and just kind of the release valve, right? But on the other side of the spectrum too is what I’m thinking about where parents are like, I’ve been going to this insert Ivy league school trained therapist for years and I have learned so much or I know so much or you know, I’ve learned so much about my kids.
issue, deficit, disorder, problem. And again, it’s like, I’m hoping and praying that knowing more, right? And I’m going to therapy every week, hoping that knowing more is going to change this, right? And so that’s just kind of the other side of it is where we get too cognitive, we get too heady, we get too intellectual instead of looking at, like what…
in the day-to-day what we call wise mind, right? When we think with our head and feel with our heart at the same time and both of those things can be true at the same time, how do we come to therapy in a way that we’re asking not for those two things to be different, right? But to accept those things, accept how they play a role in your relationship with your children, your partner, your whole family, and say, yeah, I need…
I need accountability. I need to know how do I act in service of the family system even when I think this way and feel this way and know all of this information.
Robert Trout (14:03.422)
Absolutely, yeah. So I feel like we should back this up a step and retouch on a couple of things for the listener. If you’re looking for a therapist or a helper, psychologist or whatever, like whatever the role is, there does need to be an element to this that choosing wisely means that you have an idea of the outcome that you’re hoping to achieve. So.
In a lot of ways, you have to then distinguish between, for example, a therapist and a coach. Right? It’s like very often, if you’re action oriented, if you’re looking for those behaviors and changes and processes, that’s not what you’re going to find at a lot of traditional therapeutic offices. That’s where you’re going to find a parent, coach, and trainer like we are and all that kind of stuff. But if you’re looking for a combo where it’s like, OK, then I need to build a team or find a therapist that will do
to group therapy with you and your child or the family altogether and individually with that child or find a combination of people to build a team around it. And you can find both depending on where you are. And now there’s so many online options and things like that. But again, when we do our work, I think it’s important for the parent to say, okay, what are we trying to accomplish with this? Because too often the parent’s first mistake
is thinking, well if I put my kid in therapy things will get better.
Please hear that. This is the first mistake. You putting your kid in therapy is not gonna solve any problem. It’s not. Therapy is a tool that can be used to create change over time. However, if you put yourself in a situation where, for example, you force a 14-year-old to go to therapy, all the research shows that that kid’s not getting anything out of there.
Robert Trout (16:02.76)
In fact, I know, I mean, so many stories, even I’ve had them where the kid comes in, sits on the couch, just closes their arms and stares at me for an hour. And the parent goes, well, well, he went to therapy. And I go, no, he didn’t. He went to a room and sat silently and didn’t do anything. He doesn’t want to be here. That is a mistake. When you look at all the research about change processes,
is therapy specifically is something that is used and is the most useful when the individual finds a level of growth like drive. They want to change. They want help. And when they want help, they participate. And in that participation, we see change and the process changes completely. But you have to go to that like a willingness to go to the room versus a willingness to actually go talk about what’s going on and create a plan.
and then put that plan into action steps and then to go change your life one step at a time. That’s where you’re gonna see the significant shift over time. But parents need to understand that just putting them in a room doesn’t change anything. So very often, and maybe this is where we can shift a little towards like solution orientation to this, I encourage parents all the time where it’s like, don’t just shove your kid into a room. If you want them to go to therapy and they’re
let’s say 5 % willing, even because it’s some kind of punishment, right? Where it’s like, you know, if you go to therapy, you can keep playing football or you can keep doing this or you can keep going to that school, but you have to go to therapy, et cetera. Don’t just take them and plot them somewhere. My first solution oriented process that I’ve seen work a lot over my career is for the parents to say, okay, here are three therapists.
and they set up three appointments. They might just be 20-minute meet and greets, but whatever. It’s like, hey, I want you to go meet these three people. I’ve never met them. They’re neutral. Go talk to them and you choose who you’re going to work with. You give that choice to the kid and it’s been so helpful because the kid says, well, I chose
Robert Trout (18:29.78)
and hear that language, listener, I chose to talk to this person. They had a choice and they chose. And we see a willing list there that opens the door just because of the way the process was set up. So choose wisely and understand that whoever your kid chooses has to be the right choice. You can’t say, no, I didn’t like them. Your kid.
needs to choose and that’ll set you up far better for success right off the bat because it was their choice and not yours. Even if it’s something you’re forcing them to do. What about you, Mary?
Mary (19:13.262)
The solutions to finding the right therapist.
Robert Trout (19:16.844)
Yeah, like, when you’re considering going, what would you say to the parent? It’s like, well, here’s the basic things you gotta put on the forefront of this process.
Mary (19:27.308)
Yeah, so for me, it’s the collaboration. Like, does this therapist have time or energy or a willingness to collaborate if it’s needed, right? So again, I don’t know that I’ve found many therapists who aren’t willing to collaborate with someone like us who’s actually inside of the home saying, wait, this is how I’m actually seeing this play out, right? But then yes, if your family system is more complex, a therapist who’s willing to collaborate
with other therapists working with the families and interacting, right? Because yeah, like just on a phone call today, know, a dad was questioning what’s going on in my son’s therapy where he’s coming back and saying these things. And it’s like, well, you know, we’re talking about perspective taking and feeling heard and validated in order to make change, right? But then we’re also talking about, sure, I’ll get on the phone with her.
I will talk to her about what is the child saying, right? And how can I then take that to the parents and we make changes to help the child feel more safe, more validated within the home and, you know, kind of work from there. So yeah, just a therapist who, if you know that this is going to be something your family needs, where everyone is working and everyone is working together,
a therapist who’s willing to collaborate.
Robert Trout (20:57.684)
Absolutely. And I’m going to use that to step into the next piece. You touched on a little bit, availability. Does this therapist have the time for your child and your family? And I mean that literally. The logistical scheduling piece. Because there are therapists that are very good at what they do. And they might only see a person
one hour a month to work on something that they specialize in or etc. But very often the family doesn’t consider that. They just hope that well when we need additional sessions you’ll fit us in. And a lot of therapists have very strong boundaries around they have to do self-care and take care of themselves and hold their practice together in those certain ways. And that’s just not how it’s going to happen. So you need to find someone with the flexibility
and availability for the situation you are in. again, choosing wisely. Talk upfront with that therapist about need for you, your kid, and your whole family system to make sure that they’re going to be able to meet the expectation you have in your mind versus reality when it comes to schedule.
Mary (22:19.01)
Yeah, I mean, I see often too, in terms of logistics, especially families who live in bigger cities, like getting to this therapist’s office is going to take me an hour each way, sitting there for an hour. So also thinking about the practicality of what works in your schedule. If your child does better on computer rather than in person, or if that person’s flexible with that, if, yeah.
just thinking about the practicality of it fitting in your schedule as well.
Robert Trout (22:51.796)
Absolutely. I think, you know, to close this out, you know, in the solution-oriented way, the thing that stands out to me the most when families start to struggle with a therapist is when they are holding the expectation that this therapist was supposed to fix this. Right? So when choosing a therapist,
I’m going to say that you need to have upfront conversations as the parent to the therapist to say, here’s where we’re trying to go. I’ll again, allowing the therapist to hold some capacity for, oh, I can do that. My technique, my training, my comfort level with this is a good match. allowing the therapist to say, yes, I feel like I can get you there.
and hoping in all honesty that they’re showing up with that like, yeah, absolutely. I’ve trained in this. I want to do this. I can get you there. Holding space, by the way, for that therapist to say, I’m not really sure I’m the best match for you. But I’ve had parents that have said like, we don’t care. We want to work with you. It’s like, no. Like you need to find the people who feel equipped.
in their training. Just because you have a degree doesn’t mean you’re going to be good at this, this specific thing that you’re showing up with, whether that be learning differences or addiction work or autism or whatever it is. There are specializations where people, all of us as therapists, we kind of drive towards what our passions are and who we want to work with. So you definitely need to have that open ended conversation of saying, do you also choose us?
someone that you think you can help. So it needs to be an important part of that conversation from the beginning.
Mary (24:58.806)
Yeah, and something I remind people is that you’re paying for a service, right? As much of an art and science as therapy is, you’re paying for a service. If you went to a doctor with a broken leg and they just heard you talk about your broken leg and then sent you off, is that enough? Why are you paying for that service, right? And oftentimes we don’t think of mental health as the same.
as we do as physical health. And so just really looking at, yeah, what is their capacity? What is your capacity? Have these conversations upfront so that you know when it comes time to have a harder conversation, if it comes time, then you can have it and you have kind of the framework for it. And knowing that therapy is an amazing tool for so many of us in…
and just coming to understand ourselves and learn about ourselves and just release the pressure valve of life and that it’s a tool and that it’s not the end all be all solution. It is part of the work that we do as humans to be in better relationship with ourselves and other people.
Robert Trout (26:18.888)
Absolutely. Yep. So if you’re a parent and you’re building your team and you’re having that moment of saying, well, I need therapy or my kid needs therapy or we all need therapy, these are a lot of the considerations we would hand to you is to start having the deeper conversations about what you’re needing, how you’re going to get it and what the goals are and who would be able to achieve that goal working with you.
during that process. As always, if we’re gonna be a part of your team, find us at parenttrainers.com and we look forward to working with you. Have a wonderful day.
