Robert Trout (00:02.04)
All right, welcome to Parenting Problems today. And we have a topic that comes up a lot in family systems and dynamics today. So we’re kind of excited about this episode. In fact, this comes from a parent from our community that’s working with us. And what we’re going to talk about today are siblings in a mental health dynamic within the family container. So for example,
Some of the things that come up is let’s say an older sibling has an anxiety disorder or autism or is going through a depressive or suicidal episode or is hospitalized for some reason or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Whatever the mental health kind of track is within the family, it’s going to impact.
the entire family. It’s not just like, what do we do for this kid? This kid is struggling. This kid doesn’t want to go to school. They’re not doing their homework. They’re not listening. They’re stuck in a autism loop about black and white thinking. They’re attention seeking behaviors. They’re cutting whatever it is. It doesn’t matter. What comes up very often is the afterthought. Usually an afterthought, not always.
Where as a family works through a progress of like, okay, therapy, treatment, changing family dynamics, whatever it might be, suddenly they’re in this place of like, hold on, there’s a brother or a sister or three brothers, or in my largest case, family of 13 total with one kid that had autism diagnosed and the whole family system had to shift.
And there was so much work around the siblings needing support, but also for me at least to be invited into the know to know what’s happening at a level appropriate to their age. So today join us in this conversation. And this might be the first of a conversation in a series, honestly, as we kind of get more in depth, et cetera, but let’s call today an introduction to.
Paul (02:10.144)
Okay.
Robert Trout (02:21.316)
Sibling work and the process of integrating them in to a mental health Process for the family that’s going through some kind of therapeutic work, right? All right. Well today you have myself Robert trout and Paul are a dondo to the primary coaches with parent trainers and We’re gonna talk about this subject. So Paul, let’s jump right into it What comes to mind because we do we deal with this every day?
Every single day with family so I just want to jump to you immediately. First thoughts when siblings come into the picture when we’re trying to stabilize the family system, what comes up?
Paul (02:50.731)
Certainly.
Paul (03:00.884)
Yeah, I mean, what I’ll first say is a reiteration of what you opened with, which is the siblings get lost, you know, and they fade into the background. And some of that is that their self -protection, right? And some of it is also they don’t want to be in the spotlight. They’re happy to be in the background, right? Because they see the dynamic that’s happening with the sibling who is struggling and the parents who are racking their brain and trying to keep themselves grounded enough to manage the situation.
And so if sister or brother can just keep doing what they’re doing, then everything’s going to be fine while I deal with this one. And so being able to, you know, engage the sibling or in fact, engage more than you think you actually need to is the better way to say that. Recognizing that that child is witnessing, you know, and one of the things that I say to every single parent that I work with is your kids are listening.
Robert Trout (03:35.388)
Right.
Paul (03:58.156)
They’re hearing everything you say and you don’t say. And they’re watching everything you do and you don’t do. So when you’re engaging the child who needs attention, there’s something you’re not doing. You’re not engaging the child who might actually still need support because they might be isolating in the room and hearing banging and putting on noise canceling headphones or stories of kids locking themselves in the closet for fear of…
Robert Trout (03:58.373)
always.
Paul (04:26.742)
Physical violence, mean, stories come and go and I mean, geez, they’re, yeah, it’s challenging for any family system. That being said, what does the conversation look like? Right? How do you actually support the sibling without parentifying them? Right? Because if that child with a mental health challenge is struggling, then…
Robert Trout (04:46.94)
Right. Yep.
Paul (04:54.678)
there’s obviously judgment happening by every other family member, right? There’s no way around it. Judgment happens. It’s a humanistic trait. We judge. And in this case, the judgment is about how do I create safety? How do I manage the situation? How do I keep doing what I need to do? And how do I have a relationship with each person in the family in the recognition of this bigger dynamic, right? That is taking up a lot of space.
Right? so creating the opportunity to have that conversation around how are you feeling? Just such a basic question, right? What’s your sense of this situation? What would you need in terms of support, you know, and creating the space for a richer dialogue that allows them to feel like they have a voice. Because if the child is left off in the shadows or isolated in the room or they’re leaving the house and they only come back to eat and fall asleep.
Robert Trout (05:24.486)
Yes.
Paul (05:53.634)
because that’s also something that you know siblings do is they’re like, I’m out of here, right? If that’s their only experience or their only understanding is to escape or leave, and they’re still not clear what the dynamic is, that’s a problem, right? Because the suffering that occurs in that lack of connection, that lack of conversation is that they don’t really get to know their sibling. They don’t get to know your intention around how you’re being.
Robert Trout (05:55.11)
No.
Paul (06:22.998)
with their sibling, right? Because they might just be hearing screaming and yelling. They might just be hearing like banging and, you know, all the other things that happen off in the distance in a house. You want to say something, Rob?
Robert Trout (06:34.182)
Yep. Well, yeah, I want to add one to that. It’s not just about escaping and leaving. So any parent that’s listening to this, there are so many, I mean, a vast array of reactions, okay, including fighting for their own attention in the dynamic. So it’s not, basically it’s about looking at the personality of each individual in the family system. And I can’t stress that enough where the system
Paul (06:49.484)
Certainly.
Robert Trout (07:01.636)
And the interactions within that system shape the reactions and behaviors of everyone, parent and child, sibling, whoever’s in it. They’re all working off of each other to develop coping mechanisms and strategies for getting their needs met. just to give some examples, looking at a family that they’re
Fighting with this one child and you know, we look at that and say, that child’s going through a mental health process or a diagnosis or neurological process that the family’s trying to cope with and the parents usually are the ones taking the brunt of trying to find order and structure so that we can all live together, right? Well, very often I’ve actually seen where the parents turn around and they look at the other child or children
And they’re shaping their behaviors as well because for example they might turn and say thank god you’re not like your brother you’re the good child i don’t have to worry about you at all. Holy anxiety disorder that’s on the way cuz that kid is is sitting there being like i can’t mess up i’m the one that’s supposed to be perfect i’m etc.
And I can’t tell you how many times we’ve run into that. I mean, you and I talked about one of those families this morning. It’s like, yeah, like I can’t do anything. I need to just sit here and take it like, et cetera. That’s one example. Other things are where the parents use all of their energy on the kid that needs all of the attention. And then they just ignore the other kids because their behaviors might be more secretive or less mental health focused and more behavioral focused.
Where the parents are just like, that’s right, they’re exhausted, which no judgment. I hope no one hears any judgment in this. What we’re talking about is recognizing that the container is developing into a self -flowing model. And it’s not usually till much later that we find parents that are hiring us to do trainings and do sessions with them and help them kind of.
Paul (08:47.81)
where the parents don’t just have the bandwidth.
Robert Trout (09:13.412)
Okay. Stop where things are going and reframe and rebuild so that it becomes a functional system again. But the siblings get lost. They get ignored. They get developed into their own thing. That’s very different than the first thing that the parents were super worried about with the other kid, but we’ll have to deal with later. So there’s really a recognition here where the parents need to stop and look at the entire container and say,
What are we saying and doing behaviorally ourselves that’s causing a process to happen for the siblings, younger or older? It doesn’t matter. Everyone in the system gets impacted by what’s happening in that system. So there is that stop and assess and figure out like, not only do I need to do things differently with this kid that I know is struggling, but I also need to turn and say, okay,
Maybe I invite these siblings in. That’s always something that we look at as a possibility. Kids that are old enough, right? So we’re looking for age appropriate to say, hey, you can help with this. I’m going to give you a role in stabilizing the family and teach you how to do that effectively. Kids thrive in roles. And if a parent trusts them enough to give them responsibility,
It usually develops into a pattern where it’s a really great positive coping mechanism for them to realize they have value within a relational system. And young kids, so for me, eight to 10 is where there’s a little space for conversation. 10 and up, there’s definitely space for role development and figuring out how to educate them about what’s going on for their sibling that we know is going through a mental health process.
What do think about that? Would you agree with that? What’s your range?
Paul (11:12.706)
I agree with that range, you know, and I think the major focus is what’s developmentally appropriate to speak to the sibling about, right? You know, and use simple language, right? Your brother, it’s hard for him to take in new information and he just needs some time to be able to understand it rather than saying something like his processing speed is delayed due to the neurological blah, blah, blah, right?
Like creating the space to have a clear conversation so that they understand that again, part of their role is to create space, maybe slow down, understand that the reaction that’s happening is the placeholder for the processing, right? And creating some of those psychoeducation pieces for your child. And of course, reach out to us and we can help unpack that in terms of what’s specific to the challenge. Cause we’re talking through ASD right now, but
I mean, even if you’re talking about anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, there’s all sorts of different ways to have that conversation with a sibling so that, again, they feel like they’re getting support because having a role is one aspect, but then also encouraging them to claim a process for themselves. What do I do to take care of myself when I see that my parents are working with or trying to support my sibling?
What can I empower myself to do or who can I access if my parents aren’t available? Like what are my skills? Who are my support systems? And what environment can I actually like transition towards if in fact I don’t feel safe or if I’ve been told it’s inappropriate for me to stick around because my brother, if I’m witnessing, he just stays agitated, right? Because if you take away the audience, right? That’s one of those rules of thumb, take away the audience.
when it comes to supporting any mental health crisis, right? And so being able to be clear about those things and set up a plan, because the more you have that dialogue about the plan, the more you refine that plan, then the more they’re going to feel held. And then the more the agitation in their system, be it anxiety or starting to lean towards vicarious trauma or the deeper aspects of the impact that could occur if
Robert Trout (13:05.756)
Yes.
Paul (13:34.89)
you know, the behaviors get bigger and bigger, right? That they witness or that they end up being an unwilling participant.
Robert Trout (13:41.746)
Yep. Yeah, there’s so many dynamics here. That’s why I said maybe this is just part one of this conversation, because we’re really opening a giant category where parents struggle. For example, one of the first things that we do need to touch on is that as parents recognize that they’re struggling with the kid that’s identified as like, we know something’s wrong here, usually,
Those parents themselves end up in some form of either our work coaching and training where they’re learning skills and developing the techniques to intervene and change the process, etc. Or they’re in therapy and I hope whoever the therapist is they choose their their developing skills as well. Where the skill comes from. There does need in my opinion there should always be a recognition that when a parent learns a new skill.
They need to then adjust it to their strengths and figure out like, I can say it like this and do it like this and kind of tweak it so that it’s really, it’s, it’s me. I’m showing up. It’s not just me practicing something. It’s me being in the space to facilitate a process for my loved one. My child is struggling. But then secondary to that, so many parents miss the, the, message there of like, and
All the siblings need a variety of this too. This skill is not just for you. This is for the whole system. So grandparents, siblings, uncles, aunts, whoever’s there, this needs to be spread. So once you learn it, you become the teacher. So the siblings are looking to you to develop coping mechanisms, communication strategies.
processes to intervene and take care of themselves, self -care, right? I know it’s a repetitive thing, but like how to take care of yourself when someone else is struggling and developing that sense of, okay, the whole system supports the process for this individual that is struggling at a higher level. That’s where everything gets easier.
Robert Trout (15:55.634)
It’s not just like, I know what to do. I’ll always be the person to step in and do this. We need to spread that across the board into the whole family system. But very often it can’t be taught to a 10 -year -old the same way it was taught to you. So it’s taking what you know and beginning to teach them, knowing that it’s going to be a struggle for them to develop the skill.
But a couple of years of trying and being reinforced that like you can communicate differently, you can intervene differently, you can walk away, you can do this to get prepared for being with your sibling later. You can build a relationship by changing how you’re interacting in this way to be in this way and targeting that as a relational goal.
Kids don’t usually think that way. It’s like, wait a minute, what’s a relational goal? It’s like, well, do you want to always fight with your sibling or would you like to have at least something that you can build a positive interaction around? Like, I’d like at least one thing. They usually say that. Great. Let’s build that. So you support the whole family developing the hold for not just the kid that’s struggling the most, but also you as a parent.
If the siblings can help and not participate in setting off a lot of the tension and fights and arguments and stress level in the home, if they support that, your stress level goes down and the need for your interaction as a parent goes down. We are literally talking about stabilizing the entire family system. And that ultimately should be the goal.
Paul (17:36.458)
And there’s a hard balance to strike here when we talk about inviting the siblings into a process. Because really what’s happening is to a certain degree, you’re telling your other children, hey, we need to change for the sake of this one family member. And ultimately, there can be some frustration and anger and confusion and sadness and a grieving process. And you might see behaviors from that sibling.
start to get a little bit bigger because they don’t want to compromise their time at the TV. They don’t want to compromise the access to a parent. They don’t want to compromise. What do mean my friend can’t come over? Right. And so creating the space for them to not only understand, but to also create the space for them to actually have, you know, some sense of normalcy, you know? And so these are the strategies that again, focus back on, you know, the, child with the
challenge or the mental health crises or the diagnosis that you’re trying to wrap your head around, getting them out of the house, getting them into an activity, creating the space for the other siblings, right? So think about it through all these different facets of, know, how do I not only prepare the sibling for a deeper understanding and actionable steps and role, but how do I create space for that sibling to have a childhood?
Robert Trout (18:38.108)
Yes.
Paul (19:00.768)
Right? To not parentify them, to not make them more than responsible than they should actually be. So again, it’s a hard balance and it’s a continued conversation and developmentally, as you said, Rob, as they age up, there might be more value in handing them responsibility or having a deeper conversation about, you know, what those challenges are and how the behaviors are related to neurological function and so on and so forth. But to start, think of it from a very basic lens of
Robert Trout (19:06.919)
Yes.
Paul (19:30.306)
take space for yourself.
Robert Trout (19:32.646)
Yes.
Paul (19:34.06)
take space and go have experiences with neuro -normative friends and kids and family members. Give them the opportunity to cultivate relationships outside the family system that help them feel supported so that they have some normal sense of what healthy behavior looks like because I’ve seen it time and time again with these siblings.
They see these behaviors in the household and that becomes a normalized expectation of other households. And then it’s actually really disorienting for them to go to other households, right? Or go have experiences in a, in a personally within their friend system. So there are layers, many, many layers to unpack. And again, this is a very top level kind of starting to crack the lid open on this conversation, but worth thinking about, worth considering.
Robert Trout (20:26.15)
Yep. Well, as we get a little deeper into this conversation, there is that fine line that you’re talking about of not parentifying. And let’s kind of define that for the listener. There are situations where the child becomes so, I’m going to say overburdened by the responsibility of caring for their sibling that they lose
their own childhood and free will and process it’s this wait emotionally that gets put on them and at least from my experience usually leads to. I’m gonna say a non coping strategy later because they didn’t have the room to grow through their own developmental process outside of the weight of the responsibility of caring for their sibling what would you add to that.
for the listener.
Paul (21:30.592)
I think, yeah, I would echo what you’d say and just reinforce the value of connectivity and the value of the conversation, the value of checking in and the value of making sure that the siblings are getting therapy. Right. They, and we talked a little earlier about skills, you know, hopefully the parent does learning skills. Hopefully those skills are being transferred and transmitted to the siblings and extended family members. Give that kid an opportunity to go invent to somebody who isn’t.
you know, an immediate family member, give that kid an opportunity to go process and have some perspective of somebody outside the system. Create the space for them to stabilize or understand what stabilizing actually is through skill building and that reflective process. So that idea of wraparound support, and as you said, Rob, it isn’t just around that individual with the mental health challenges because oftentimes they’re in
In more families than not, there’s more than one mental health crisis. know, there are more than one person in the system is struggling on some level or another, even if it’s just.
Robert Trout (22:28.924)
Yes.
Paul (22:36.012)
grief, right? And like, because of what they’re trying to face and manage, and just the exhaustion can lead to that, right? And so creating the understanding of, hey, let’s re -up our self -care practices. You know, let’s get the basics down, right? When it comes to the siblings, it’s like, are they getting good sleep? Are they getting good nutrition? Are they hydrating? Are they getting exercise? Because if you’re
If those basic four things are not held by everybody in the family system, dysregulation is just going to be commonplace. So as much as we’re talking about support across the board, you got to start with a healthy foundations and then build from there.
Robert Trout (23:24.7)
So let’s kind of back off a little bit from the big topic and let’s see if we can come up with some specifics for siblings. Okay, so we’re stepping away from the parents and the kid. If we’re looking at specifics for siblings and your parent out there listening to this, here are some basic ideas of stepping in to work with the sibling. The first you’ve heard a few times, stop and have
conversation with the sibling and develop the skill of realizing that they are they might lie to you they might everything’s fine you don’t worry about me like there might already be some developed patterns that you’ll need to build relationship first first build relationship first to open the door where they’re actually talking with you about the struggle of living with you and this other individual that’s struggling
and what’s coming up for them. stop, build relationship, and open the door for conversation would be my first like go to piece to that or rule. Let’s call them rules. What are the six rules, Paul? Let’s create them right now off the cuff. One, stop, assess, build relationship, and get them to the place where the sibling feels safe enough to speak with you. That would be rule number one for me. What would you say rule number two is?
Paul (24:50.53)
Mm
I would say get curious about what they actually would like in terms of support. And support can be, again, a plan. And it could be scheduled time one -on -one with them so that they feel your presence. Because they have a story about who you are, whether you’re there or you’re not. So being able to show up and be present with them, even if it’s like, hey, let’s go get some tea. Let’s go get a snack. Let’s go come shopping with me.
You can pick dinner tonight, you know, whatever it is, get one -on -one time with them, right? And it doesn’t have to be a time where you process. It’s just co -regulation, share space, talk about nonsensical things or what have you. It’s not about having a process, air quotes process. It’s about connection and then feeling your presence. So curiosity about supports and plan, and then also presence. would say that’s number two.
Robert Trout (25:50.994)
Great. I like it. Rule number three, if I would throw something at the end of that, would be to recognize that each sibling needs a role for the family system. They can’t just be left to figure it out. They need to be their personal, their personality, their skills need to be developed into a strength for the family system.
And that’s not always with you. If you recognize that your child has a strength in art or creative processes or heck in therapeutic, like relational work and connecting with others or making friends or whatever it might be, develop those skills and recognize that you don’t have to be the one doing it, but you do have to support it. Get them into the right scenarios because that this sibling is also
going to individuate through their growth process of being a teenager and figuring out who they are and trying on the personality hats that they’re going to try on. give them a role, develop their strengths, and recognize that you don’t have to be the one doing it. That would be rule number three for me.
Robert Trout (27:13.755)
Rule four.
Paul (27:15.338)
You know, how many do we want to give? Because I mean, that’s already a hand.
Robert Trout (27:16.882)
I want six. I think six is a good number. What do you think?
Paul (27:22.612)
Okay, I mean, we can keep going. So I would say rule four would be co -parent. Make sure you’re on the same page with your co -parent around how you, or co -parent or co -caregiver, if you’re a single parent in the household, who are the other adults that you can resource to support the sibling?
Tell them about the conversations you’re having with a sibling. Make sure you’re on the same page about what that sibling needs. Create the space for, at the very least, side conversation, or maybe all of you sit down with a sibling so that, again, they feel held in the process. This is about that, again, I said earlier, skills supports environments. This is that supports part. Who else besides you as a parent, and of course your co -parent or co -caregiver,
Who can that sibling resource? Who do they feel safe with? Who can they go to? Even if it’s just a neighbor, just to walk outside the door and go around to the other front yard, knock on the door and say, hey, can I hang out for a little bit? Set up systems of support. I’d say that’s four.
Robert Trout (28:30.342)
Yep. Awesome. Rule five. Very simple. Do not create an us versus them.
Paul (28:41.666)
Mm -hmm.
Robert Trout (28:43.814)
So many times parents identify the child that’s struggling and they blame them, not even like consciously, it’s just our language and behaviors as we react to mental health processes. Especially if a parent’s not prepared. They don’t know what they’re doing and they’re guessing, which is why we exist, is we help parents remove the guesswork. Well, guess what? You can’t turn to the sibling and go, my God, your brother’s so difficult.
Us versus them breeds resentment and gives permission for conflict. Parents need to understand their role in that. That if you develop language of us versus them, it will create conflict 100 % across the board in some way. Because the sibling
Paul (29:21.184)
And it gets weaponized.
Paul (29:27.49)
Mm -hmm.
Robert Trout (29:39.312)
We’ll develop that individuation where they recognize that they can get what they want. If they can get maybe you distracted to go back over there, don’t pay attention to me or give me what I want because I’m the good kid. And that’s the bad kid. Like recognize that a big part of this. So rule five is do your best to create a us, a we challenge to the processes of living as a family without creating a.
I’m venting to you the sibling or I’m giving you the emotional vomit that I need to because I can’t go over here and maybe I don’t have that partner at home or adult that I’ve built a relationship with or I’m not in therapy or etc. So many dynamics play into this but just think about it when you’re thinking of this concept us versus them is not the goal and that’s rule five. All right final rule what do you think?
Paul (30:39.574)
I would say is brainstorm with the sibling what sort of activities they’d like to do with their brother or sister so that they can build a relationship. Because ultimately, if they don’t have some sort of contrived thing to focus on, or they don’t have a thing that they enjoy doing together, it’s going to be very hard for them to relate. Creating the space for them to have
Robert Trout (30:47.654)
Yes, build relationships. We’re on the same page.
Paul (31:08.972)
have an opportunity to build rapport, have an opportunity to share a laugh, or at the very least, relax. It could be watching a movie, right? That’s good, because in silence, both focused in the same direction, sharing space quietly, maybe that’s as good as it gets, right? And so creating the space for them to have an opportunity to just be in an environment where they can just be with each other and not have it evolve into conflict or stress, right? So figure out what those activities are.
because their relationship, it’s gonna need to be nurtured, right? Because they’re gonna be confused and frustrated with each other. And so cultivating that is, yeah, it needs intention.
Robert Trout (31:53.244)
I guess my last comment as we finish with that is recognize that they’re not going to get along all the time. Developing relationships doesn’t mean they’re best friends. It’s just literally like sometimes it’s just about getting that one thing. Like you said, that one thing that they share that they like and connect over, that’s it. That’s all you’re ever going to get. So then it’s about helping each individuate and not weighing down the system because they’re both getting their needs met. All of them are getting their needs met.
the best that you can do. And again, remove judgment. So many parents like, my God, I’m failing both kids. And it’s like, no, you’re not. You just need to develop the skills, the structure, the boundaries, and the processes and intervention. And to be honest, let’s go all the way back to the beginning. The assessment to see all of these kids as individuals and
work with what you have to develop a system that can flow and work together. That’s that relation.
Paul (32:56.714)
Yeah. And what I will add on as a fine point to what you just said, Rob, is your family is playing the long game. This is not a quick fix. Just because you know, doesn’t mean that everything should snap into order, right? The change that you’re looking to make from even just the six suggestions, even if you just take two of those suggestions and run with them, that is going to take intentionality and time because change is hard.
Robert Trout (33:04.295)
Yes.
Robert Trout (33:18.47)
Yeah.
Paul (33:25.632)
because patterns are rooted. They’re patterns for a lot of reasons, right? And so creating the space to understand, you know, how do those patterns form and how do we unpack them? That takes support. That takes support sometimes from somebody who’s really outside the system to look at it and go, hey, let’s talk about clarity of language as just a focused conversation for the parent to go, yeah, right, I need to hone in on this, that, or the other.
you know, get the support you need. If it’s not from us, talk to your therapist, talk to your community organizers, talk to your child’s therapist, create the space for a dialogue to, you know, wrap your head around strategies to gradually implement these changes. Cause again, the whiplash of trying to force it all at once is going to be met with resistance and yeah, that’s just the nature of it. So give yourself some grace, give your kids some grace.
and recognize it’s going to take a little bit of time.
Robert Trout (34:26.93)
Very good. Well, for all the families listening, we hope this was helpful and at least started you thinking. Like, let’s just join the conversation, OK? There’s a process of recognizing what we’re good at and not good at, what we know and what we don’t know. It’s that assessment of self as well. So if you enjoyed this episode, come find us and join our community at parentrainers .com. Ask questions. Give us podcast ideas. Share your story.
Get some coaching and training from us if that’s what would be helpful. But we look forward to supporting all the families that are listening and hope this helps you figure out a new direction for something that you’re trying to work with within your family.
