Robert Trout (00:01.614)
Hello, and welcome to the Parent Problems Today podcast. I’m your host Robert Trout from the Parent Trainers Team joined by Paul Arradondo from the Parent Trainers Team as well. And today we’re bringing you a broad topic of discussion for a lot of parents that are looking at what they’re doing and kind of what their strategies are for working with their tweens, teens, and young adults who are struggling. So the topic today is looking at this idea of
creating healthy structure and we can say in the home or more broadly within the family system. Right? So this may actually include people who don’t live directly in your home like grandparents or aunts and uncles or close family friends or people that are generally a part of the system that the child is kind of growing up in and learning from and being a part of that. So
Paul, what’s the first thought that comes up when we start talking about creating healthy structure for a family?
Paul (01:07.33)
I mean, the first thought is always the question that we receive when we talk to parents is like, how much, what does it look like? How do I even talk about it? Like I either didn’t grow up in it or I grew up where it was just militant, you know? And so, you know, we start with the idea of balance and sustainability, you know, before we can define the structure. One of the things that we often address is, well, first, you know, helping the parent become
a little bit curious about what did they grow up with and what did they start with and what were they oriented to in their own childhoods because that’s often the basis of what actually they’re capable of doing, which is really interesting. So being able to take that step back and look at, right, what am I capable of actually holding for my children? What’s realistic for me? What’s sustainable for me? Because
you and I and many other parent coaches and gosh, parents themselves can sit back and go, it’d be great if my kid can do this and they can do this and they can do this and this could happen and that could happen and everything would be perfect if they can also show up in this way and they would manage that and be able to do an X, Y and Z. And ultimately we can paint these idyllic lenses of what quote unquote structure is or family culture is or how we operate together in our households or communities.
And it’s not going to be sustainable for the kids if the parents or the caregivers can’t hold it. They can’t maintain it. They can’t. It’s not sustainable for them. So again, if it’s not sustainable for you as parents, as caregivers, it won’t be sustainable for the kids. So being able to slow down and again, objectively take that step back. What is it that we actually want for our children? We want to grow them into healthy adults.
What is it that we hope for them? We hope that we pass off our values and our ethics and they grow up to be healthy, good humans on the planet. so, know, expectations are the actual understandings of values and ethics. Like, why do you clean your room? Well, oftentimes you’ll hear like that cleaning your room is actually your function of your internal process.
Paul (03:30.444)
Like an organized space is an organized mind as a settled emotional state is a clear, clear ability to show up in the next moment. You know, so these reflections can actually be really fascinating when we take a step back and we think about what are we teaching with Clean Your Room? It’s time management, it’s responsibility, it’s work ethic, it’s respecting the household.
It’s respecting your belongings. It’s caretaking your environment. And oftentimes, tours beyond their own personal bedrooms is contributing to community. I mean, we can go on and on about why expectations are valuable. And again, what are we inviting these kids, these young adults, these teens, tweens to learn? It is about setting them up for success so that they internalize this structure, these expectations, and take them with themselves.
often to the future, often to their college life, their apartments, their navigating roommate situations. So ultimately, when we’re conveying this idea of structure, it needs to be grounded first in your values and ethics. do a Google search of values and ethics lists. And you’ll be able to come across 50 or 100 that you’ll be like, oh my God, that’s the reason. Oh, that makes so much sense if I can frame it in that way.
If I can have the conversation with my kids and maybe help them understand, or at least plant the seed of understanding of why an expectation is necessary, of why we do these things as a family together, why we are doing these things. And so that’s another thing that, and I want to pass this back to you, Rob, but I’ll say to kind of wrap this a little bit up is when we talk about expectations, oftentimes we try and make them across the board.
because that’s the way it works with buy-in, whether it’s a single child home environment or multiple siblings, being able to say, are all going to be, we’re all gonna contribute in this way. We are all going to take on this responsibility, this responsibility, and this responsibility, this we mentality. Because if it’s you are going to be, then it’s that kind of like locked horns place that often parents find themselves when it comes to just,
Paul (05:56.618)
maintaining these things or the ability to follow through or hold the boundary or consequence if maybe a child or young adult doesn’t show up.
Robert Trout (06:06.156)
Yeah. Well, therein lies the real part of the conversation when it comes to being sustainable. Some families, they ignore that, concept of like, this is sustainable because what so many parents fall into the trap, I should say they fall into is they want the magic button where they press the button and the kid just always cleans their room like they’re supposed to.
Paul (06:30.168)
Certainly.
That’d be amazing. That’d be so good. Yeah.
Robert Trout (06:35.552)
I’m like, but it is a trap. And so when we talk about sustainability, what we’re talking about here is the acknowledgement that this is going to be a long, long drawn out shift for the entire family system. Because if you’ve reached the point as the parent,
Paul (06:42.904)
Mm-mm.
Robert Trout (07:03.266)
where you’re recognizing the amount of energy lost in the battle over whatever it is within the home structure, whether it’s cleaning the room or getting up and going to school or, you know, speaking respectfully or anything within the values list that, know, you were speaking to then for every parent listening to this, I’m sorry, there’s no magic button.
So sustainability is the important conversation about recognizing that when you choose to change a behavior, what you’re choosing is to dedicate your energy to changing the process of interaction and then thus the process of behaviors from both sides, your behaviors and their behaviors, to change the outcome over time. And that’s…
That bothers so many families. I mean, so many parents struggle with this because they want the like, but I told them to clean their room. And we have to sometimes be the one that says, so what? I mean, why does that mean anything? Are you really gonna do anything to them? Because what we, what I, think we often find is this breakdown where you told them what was expected.
Paul (08:07.278)
Yeah.
Paul (08:14.22)
Okay.
Robert Trout (08:26.99)
And there’s no follow through, so why should they listen to you? There’s no consequence sequence that then steps in that teaches them that you meant what you said in the first place, because maybe you spent all your energy telling them and none of the energy enforcing the consequences that would educate them towards the change that you’re looking for.
And that’s really strange for lot of parents. Like we really try to open their eyes, right, through the process and education and techniques and et cetera to the like, you did this part and you maybe messed that part up. Right? In the tone you use, the language, the threat, the whatever it might be, there’s so many ways that we cross over that line where
in the way you did this part, you think you were really like forceful about it maybe or whatever word comes up. But the truth is, is you, you kind of downgraded your reputation or relationship with this, especially teenager, right? And, and now we jumped to phase two where it’s like you expect them to have done what you said, but there’s that complete disconnect. So.
Paul (09:36.302)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (09:37.228)
When we talk about creating healthy structure, it’s recognizing that structure is built by the parent, not by the kid. And structure doesn’t come from being told. Structure comes from action-oriented processes, including the consequence sequence, where the child realizes that if I do this, this result happens that I don’t like or I do like. Because remember, consequences are good and bad.
consequences are just the reaction after the action or decision that was made. So looking at that, it’s like, okay, good or bad, and that’s where we get that reinforcement and that process of learning that things didn’t go the way the child wanted, so they change in order to meet in the process. Thoughts on that?
Paul (10:31.266)
Yeah, I’ll add upon that by saying that, you know, the reason we set expectations is because what we’re really trying to do is prepare our children for being adults. And what we’re trying to ultimately do is help them understand how to prioritize things. Like the dishes need to be done. Like they need to do their laundry. Like homework needs to be done before they can go play with their friends or they can go and get on the video game. And if we don’t actually clarify that and follow through with that,
then it’s just this gray area that they get to continue to play in. And so when we’re talking about clarifying expectations, which is step one of the consequence sequence, we’ve referenced this idea of a consequence sequence. Step one of the consequence sequence is get clear, black and white clear, so clear that it is like a smart goal clear. And a smart goal is an acronym of specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, timely. I’ll say it again.
Specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, timely. And for instance, would be cleaning up the dog poop. Specific is clean the dog poop. The measurables are you grab the shovel out of the shed, grab a paper bag, go out into the backyard, scoop it all up, put that paper bag in the outside trash can, not the inside one, put the shovel back into the shed and close the shed.
Those are all the measurables of that task. We can go through the measurables of bedroom. We can go through the measurables of cleaning the bathroom, of vacuuming the living room, of all of these chores or expectations. So that’s the end, the measurables. Is it achievable? Sure. Are they able-bodied? Do they know where they’re at? Have you gone through it? Have you maybe done it with them and showed them how to do it? Is it something that they can actually do? Of course, right? Is it realistic? Certainly.
especially if it’s daytime. so therein lies the fifth aspect, which is, you know, the timeliness factor. And so being able to say, hey, it’s not your job to just to do cleaning up the poop on Saturdays. It’s Saturday by three o’clock. So that ultimately you can tend to them and help them understand another value, which is time management. So this is where I think
Paul (13:00.158)
Again, we talk about where it gets challenging for parents, and I bet there are a bunch of parents right now going, I do structure and all my kids just tell me I’m nagging them and I’m macro managing them. It’s like, yes, you are. And let’s take a step back and recognize how you don’t have to. When we go through this idea of a consequence sequence, there’s actually other elements that come into play when you get clear and you say poop by three o’clock.
Clean it up by 3 o’clock, right? The second step of a consequence sequence is a reminder. And my god, I can hear a bunch of parents going, I remind my kids all the time. Well, stop being attached to them jumping up out of their seat and going and doing it immediately. It’s a soft reminder, because 3 o’clock is the end game, not 10 AM when you’re like,
Robert Trout (13:37.358)
Thanks.
Paul (13:54.988)
settling in with them and you’ve had breakfast and so on and so forth. It’s just a reminder. It’s like orienting them. Their brain is not developed enough to remember this thing. And they’re so distractible with their technology, with their friends, with all of the other elements of their lives. So it’s about just a little touchstone of reorientation. And we can continue going through this idea of a consequence sequence, but ultimately when it comes down to it and you go, all right, it takes tooth.
about a half hour, 45 minutes for them to complete it. So if the end game is three o’clock, 2.15, that’s the point where you say, hey, you got to get on it. Or by three o’clock, I’m taking away the distraction. That’s the consequence. You take away the phone. You turn off the video game. You get them reoriented. Because again, the value is prioritization and understanding and responsibility.
and contributing to the household and caretaking the animal and caretaking the landscape and the yard so people can go walk into the backyard without having to worry about landmines. So all of this again is about service and about adulting and about responsibility and so tying it back to values. So when you orient to it and you catch yourself as a parent and say, this isn’t on my time, it’s on
their time. All I have to do is give a gentle reminder. I don’t sit, don’t at 1130 go, hey, remember you got to do the dog poop and you need to get up and you go and do it from the shed to the thing and the thing and the thing and the thing. It’s not all detail oriented because you’ve already had that conversation. I mean, Rob, how many times have we heard from parents? I’ve told them a thousand times. I feel like I’m a broken record. Stop being a broken record. You’re right. They’ve heard it a thousand times. They could tell you. In fact, sometimes it’s good to say,
Robert Trout (15:47.426)
Yep.
Paul (15:52.834)
Hey, I don’t want to say it anymore. So you tell me what does cleaning up the dog poop mean? What are the details of that? And they can probably go, ugh, the shed, the bag, the shovel, get it all up and put the shovel back and close the shed, right? And you go, yep, got it, sweet. So stop lecturing, especially when they’re teens and older. Stop lecturing, stop repeating yourself, invite them into the conversation rather than throwing language up.
Robert Trout (16:22.808)
Yep.
Paul (16:22.824)
And again, the reminders are so gentle. They’re in passing. You don’t even need to make eye contact. Hey, three o’clock, right? Sometimes that’s all it takes and you’re going to get a reaction of, God, yeah, the poop. you don’t even worry about it. It’s not about engaging that. All you’re doing is giving them a little bit of a mental reference of like, yeah, I have to manage time or they’re going to take my phone at three. That’s it. And then the structure ends up being
the boundary holder. And oftentimes when parents get into this rhythm, we hear it time and again, Rob, like, it’s getting easier because the structure is holding it. I don’t have to hold it. The time is holding it. I don’t have to hold it. I just give these like little one-off quips that aren’t judgmental and like pointed. Sweet, I could do that. That actually helps my relationship with my child.
Robert Trout (17:18.114)
And again, the sustainability piece, right? You have done this like this didn’t become easy after three days. This became easier after three months of the system running itself. For example, this is one of the hardest parts. They didn’t clean up the dog poop. The phone gets taken away, the games are gone, whatever it is that it’s tied to within your family system is gone.
Paul (17:20.609)
Exactly.
Paul (17:25.887)
No.
Robert Trout (17:45.984)
And remember the beginning of this conversation, that’s where most parents fall apart. You know, because they don’t want to deal with the blowout of their kid if they took the game away or they took the phone away or et cetera. But here’s the important piece to this. That blowout is them learning. If you take the blowout away, there’s nothing teaching them nothing at all. They need to feel.
Paul (17:50.136)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (18:06.54)
Yes.
Robert Trout (18:13.762)
the absence of the phone or the allowance or the trip they were taking with their friends this evening or whatever, they need to feel that. And if they’re upset, screaming, yelling, whatever it is, and we see some outlandish reactions. I mean, that’s what really is a whole other podcast episode, but there’s this level of reaction that is going to happen. And so many parents are like, I just wish they wouldn’t react. And it’s like,
That’s like the magic button theory. That’s not ever going to happen. You’re going to see a reaction when they don’t complete what they’re supposed to be. It’s predictable. It’s a hundred percent predictable. And that’s wishful thinking on the parent side to be like, I’m so tired. hope I don’t, I hope I don’t have to deal with this. I’m sorry. You’re tired and you’re going to have to deal with this. If you want this to change over time, you need to get them to that place of realizing that even when you’re tired,
Paul (18:49.771)
It’s predictable.
Robert Trout (19:12.008)
even when you don’t want to see them react in whatever way that they do, you’re still willing to step in and do it. Let the blowout happen. That’s a key part to this. Within safety, right? And that’s where we get to the expectation piece that some kids that are going through a mental health process, they reach levels of activation that are dangerous for either the parent or others or themselves or whatever it might be.
Paul (19:21.838)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (19:41.28)
Again, totally different conversation, but on a normal level of conversation about these healthy structure elements, we have to look at that like the reaction is necessary for the change to occur. It is necessary. So if you’re a parent within that dynamic, and maybe that’s where we can move this conversation now, it’s like, okay, when it comes to healthy structure, what I very often have to do with the parent is show them, it’s like, okay, they didn’t
Paul (19:56.664)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (20:10.414)
cleaned their room, this got taken away, they reacted and now, you know, their phone was taken away for 24 hours, they cleaned their room, they got their phone back and life has returned to normal. And the parent goes, oh my God, they screamed and yelled and like they didn’t talk to me for a day or whatever, like whatever the reaction was. And I go, okay, and they’re like, what do mean and? And it’s like, and the sequence completed itself.
Paul (20:38.69)
Thanks.
Robert Trout (20:40.146)
That is healthy structure because the everyone in the scenario learned something. You learned that your structure is working because they cleaned their room, waited 24 hours and got their phone back. And now the sequence is complete. They learned that you really meant it. That if they didn’t clean the room by Saturday at 5 p.m. they lost their phone for the rest of the weekend. Right? Like.
Paul (20:46.837)
huh.
Robert Trout (21:08.876)
They’re learning that your boundaries are real, right? And we’ve talked about that a lot. Like teenagers are supposed to. Their brains, tweens and teens, are moving into this developmental phase neurologically, even with added mental health stress, whatever that might be. But just on a normal level, teenagers are supposed to reach out and touch the boundary and go, is that real? If I push this wall, like, does it move?
Or do you mean it that like if I touch that wall this thing happens to me? It’s so weird, but please hear this. They actually do respond to real boundaries. And that’s such a hard thing to get to a lot of parents because of maybe the way they were parented in either direction or however they learned to be parents.
Paul (21:52.173)
Yep.
Paul (22:01.367)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (22:03.458)
There’s this lesson in that of like, maybe you were a teenager who pushed those walls and those walls just kept moving and you raised yourself and it was fine. But now you want this teenager to listen to you? And therein lies like part of the frustration for that parent is the like, my God, they’re just like me. I mean, I don’t know how to do anything differently because my parents never did anything differently.
Well, welcome to parent trainers. Come learn some new things that you didn’t have when you were a teenager that you can do. But the underlying lesson, no matter what direction you go with this, is that the teenager is going to, please expect this. This is 100 % predictable. They’re going to test their reality. They’re going to test, you mean it that you’ll take my phone? Do you mean it that I can’t hang out with that friend?
Paul (22:47.03)
Okay.
Robert Trout (22:55.372)
Do you mean it this? Do you mean that they will do it over and over again? And that’s where the conversation about healthy structure steps into the if you set a clear expectation with consequences and everything outlined. So you have to set the whole thing up correctly. And that’s a whole lesson piece. But you set it up. Do you follow through?
If you follow through, you complete the cycle and that is what we’re really talking about today when it comes to creating healthy structure is structure is something that becomes foundational. You build off of a foundation. Well, the foundational pieces of your structure are the stones you put into place that theoretically, theoretically won’t move when your child pushes on them.
But you’re the one holding them in place where you put them. If you don’t do it, no one else will. I mean, they’ll find all the loopholes they can. I mean, how many times do we hear like, my child should be a lawyer. They find all the loopholes. And it’s like, that’s great. Then you better be a heck of a public defender. Right? Guarding the Constitution that is in place to hold the system together.
That’s the process of understanding your role, but also of completing the steps to build the structure in the first place.
Paul (24:26.414)
think it’s also worth it to take a step back and reiterate something that I mentioned just a little earlier, which is, you know, let the structure, let the expectations be the thing that they push back on. And really what that means is be conscious of how you’re holding the boundaries and how you’re holding the expectations and presenting the consequences. You are not reacting to them.
When you set good expectations, you’re no longer reacting, meaning you don’t have to have an aggressive tone. You don’t have to have an authoritative tone. You can have an assertive tone. You can even have a compassionate tone when you’re holding a consequence. You can say, yeah, I know, it sucks. Yeah, I’ll take your phone. And actually, this first time, I’ll just take your phone until you’re done cleaning your room. And then I’ll just give it right back to you. If it happens again, that will push to the rest of the night. And if it happens again, which I really…
Robert Trout (25:02.712)
Yes.
Paul (25:23.886)
wish it doesn’t, know, then it’ll be taking it for 24 hours. You know, but I don’t want to take your phone. This is about you like learning how to manage your time. That’s what this is about. So being able to maintain a relationship with your child, because I think a lot of parents, know, gosh, how many times have we worked with co-parenting couples where one
person’s the bad guy and one person’s the good guy. And, you know, they feel like they can’t, you know, be anything other than that because that’s what they’ve fallen into and they’ve been doing it for years. And it’s like, okay, let’s actually recognize that there’s balance within both of these and help you out meet each other in the middle and nobody has to be the bad guy and being the good guy is still available while you’re holding consequences. Again.
Robert Trout (26:17.422)
Thank you.
Paul (26:18.094)
Can you do this with compassion? Can you do it skillfully? Can you set the stage for them to truly understand your intent? Because you can scream and yell at them, and then it’s no longer about them learning something. It’s about you demeaning them and shaming them because they didn’t clean up the dog poop before the sun went down. So again, this is about creating the clarity of an expectation so that ultimately you are responding to
their action or inaction because you’ve given them several reminders, because you’ve given them the opportunity to lay on the couch all day and watch their video. Fine, okay, now they don’t get the phone for a while. So that’s the consequence. Watch out for making it happen on your time. But they’re sitting on the couch and the poop isn’t clean yet. Yeah, they have till three o’clock. Let them feel that, let them sit in that, let them learn the lesson of like, you’re not gonna nag them and make them do it.
You’re giving them the opportunity to show up. This is adulting. This is the skill of them showing up at work on time. This is the skill of them following through and getting their homework done without you telling them they need to. So being able to hold it for them and with them.
Robert Trout (27:22.05)
Yep.
Robert Trout (27:31.234)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (27:35.5)
Yep. And an important element to that is also, like you said, like you don’t nag them, right? There’s also the after effect that when the consequence kicks in, don’t make it personal. Like, you didn’t listen to me. I’m taking the phone. It was like, nope. Hey, dog poops not picked up. I’m going to take this now. Let me know when it’s done.
Paul (27:41.517)
Right.
Paul (27:48.139)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (28:00.45)
Right.
Robert Trout (28:01.666)
there’s a huge relationship difference between the reaction versus the consequence. And if the consequence already established is the phone will go away until you’re done with this chore, then it’s not personal. They didn’t hurt you or not listen to you for that. If that kind of reaction comes up, that’s for you as a parent to do your personal work, right? Because that’s stepping into something where like they did not do this because of you necessarily.
Paul (28:13.39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Paul (28:22.645)
Exactly.
Robert Trout (28:29.218)
This is very often just developmentally normal for them to forget that three o’clock happens.
Paul (28:36.588)
Yeah, and that’s the big work, right? Is the parent needs to stop taking it so personally. Right? It’s not about you. Right.
Robert Trout (28:41.078)
Yes. Yeah, it’s a big part of it. Absolutely. It’s also what you were saying where the structure, which is a part of the system, runs itself. I actually am a huge fan. And maybe this is my closing thought on this whole conversation is, is you make the system run itself so that you’re not the bad guy or the police officer within the system. So one of my favorite examples of that are the new apps that are on the phones.
Paul (29:02.627)
Right.
Robert Trout (29:07.52)
where three o’clock happens, the dog poop’s not cleaned up, the parent just takes out their phone, presses a button, and their kid’s phone becomes a brick. It doesn’t do anything. It’s locked out now. And there was no conversation at all. And the kid goes, it’s three o’clock. And they go, and they finish whatever they were supposed to do. And then they can come back and say, I did what I’m supposed to do.
And maybe that’s the only consequence is that it turns off until it’s done. And that’s the kind of level one, like, you know, we’re trying to teach you. Level two is the, like, we have established guidelines that, you know, you do have to finish whatever the chore was and you’ll get it back the next day. So you have the rest of the day to get it done, but you won’t have it until the next day or it was level two. And then it goes up from there.
But either way, you remove a lot of the interaction because that’s where most of the fights happen. And when it comes to healthy structure for me with families, the more you can make the system work for you, the less stress and less energy as a parent you’re going to lose. So that would be my final thoughts on this. Paul, what would you want to add or send people off with?
Paul (30:26.08)
Yeah, I would say take a look at the expectations you already have and pay attention to the time factor, right? Because you’re not going to get in to clean the room if they’re already in their bed going to fall asleep, right? You’re not going to get them to clean up the living room if they’re already in the bed for the night or brush their teeth or do these other things when the day is done.
That’s when the wrestling starts to happen figuratively and sometimes literally, where parents get stuck and they get agitated. so ultimately, again, it’s about setting yourself up for success. Set yourself up to respond to them rather than react to them. Create an understanding and make sure that you and your co-parent are on the same page in this regard and checking in with each other about how you guys are running through the day and…
who’s checked in with what kid and have you done the quick easy reminder so you don’t feel like you’re doubling up on each other or on the kid rather. So think about it from a systemic sort of lens of things and give us a call if you want some support. I love these conversations.
Robert Trout (31:36.322)
Yep. All right. Well, come find us at parenttrainers.com and join the community and join one of our online trainings. And yeah, we look forward to hearing from everyone and answering questions. And we hope this has been helpful.
