Robert Trout (00:01.71)
Hello and welcome to the parent problems today podcast. And today you have myself, Robert Trout and Paul Arradondo from the parent trainers team. The topic of today’s episode is looking at the idea of understanding deescalation. Deescalation is something that parents have to be able to do if they want to effectively instill a process of change into their family dynamic.
or to help one of their children go through a mental or behavioral health process. So sometimes there’s some misconceptions about de-escalation and what that means. And we want to look at those, but also just talk about the basics today, the basics of de-escalation and kind of the skillset of understanding what that is and how you would use it as a parent of a teen, tween, or young adult who’s going through a process. And
I guess what I want to do is make sure we start by looking at the spectrum because I have talked to a lot of parents that those I’ll talk about de-escalation and I’ll say, well, my kids not like breaking things and like running away. That’s not what my kids doing. My kids refusing to go to school or refusing to get out of bed or you know, they’re they’re just not doing their chores or something like that.
And I guess we should definitely start there where understanding de-escalation is for the parent to see that when a kid is acting out, it is not always an anger. We talk very often about the red zone and that is when someone’s at an elevated state where you see posturing and physical acting out and verbal abuse and things like that. But underneath that, we look at it and talk about the blue zone, which is very much that like lower level of acting out.
Where there’s not physical threat, but they’re still acting out. I mean, we’re just looking at someone that’s locking in right to a behavior because they’re looking for an outcome and that might be you giving up and walking away from them. Cause if you do that, then they know what to go to school today or you know whatever, but they’re looking for an outcome. So deescalation is really just talking about getting a person to come out.
Robert Trout (02:21.204)
of a neurological state that they’re stuck in or a mental state that they’re stuck in, an emotional state that they’re stuck in. We’re really talking about getting unstuck and de-escalation is bringing someone from that state of being where they are stuck into a place where they become more open, more rational, more a state of having conversation that is back and forth and connected, things like that.
So we want to make sure that for the parent that’s listening, today as we’re looking at deescalation, it is up to you to open your mind that this isn’t for that rare time your kid’s screaming or throwing things. This is any locked in behavior. Paul, I’ll pass it to you. Any thoughts on that, like just as we look at the definition of deescalation?
Paul (03:14.143)
I mean, certainly. think one of the things that comes up when we talk to any family is parents saying something to the effect of if he would just, or if she would just listen to me, if they would just understand, if they would just hear me, then everything would be fine. And I think one of the things that is, gosh, I hope some anybody takes away from this conversation is that classic framework of like,
Why would I listen to you if you’re not listening to me? Why would I listen to you if you’re not listening to me? And that’s the case with every single kid. Being able to deescalate them actually means putting your agenda as a parent on the back burner for a little bit, slowing down and actually doing the listening. And I mean, we’ll get to the skills of reflective listening and things of that nature and creating the space for them.
Because ultimately, if they’re experiencing something like anger, frustration, sadness, grief, withdrawal, really what they’re feeling is a lack of safety. So if we’re really getting down to the nitty gritty of deescalation, it’s can I help my child feel safe? Can I help my child feel accepted for who they are in this moment? And that’s
sometimes a very difficult thing for any parent because when they see their child acting out or they see their child suffering or struggling or in some version of discomfort, as a parent, they feel their own version of discomfort. And one of the classic things that we see is if I see my child uncomfortable, I’m uncomfortable. So I need to make my child feel better so I can feel better.
And so that feeling of lack of safety that the child’s experiencing becomes a lack of safety that the parent experiences. And then both the child and the parent are trying to control the situation and that doesn’t support. So when we’re talking about deescalation, we’re talking about unwinding these patterns. And for parents, one of the more challenging aspects of deescalation is first being able to calm themselves down to then be able to help their child feel safe.
Robert Trout (05:17.783)
Yeah.
Paul (05:33.259)
So those are the first things that popped to mind for me,
Robert Trout (05:37.164)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that leads into the second part of the conversation around deescalation is Deescalation requires you as the parent to be grounded It is required that you’re not in The process with your child whether that’s them not getting out of bed or them throwing things at you Whatever, you know wherever they are on the spectrum of behavior
When you begin the process of de-escalation, there’s the recognition of the parent saying, look at them. They assess. They evaluate what’s happening for their kid, and they separate themselves from that and say, I see where they’re at. And my goal is not for them to listen to me right now. That’s the releasing of the agenda, right? It’s like, my agenda is gone. I have a job to do now. And it really is that cut and dry.
I have a job to do right now, which is to help this human being who is not present, who is not rational, who is not in a state of reciprocity. And my job is to create an environment and a process that allows them to step out of where they’re stuck neurologically and into a place of balance and reciprocity and understanding where we can be in conversation with each other. But too often,
Whether it’s a parent or a teacher or I mean, any anybody that’s interacting with another human too often, we don’t do that. We see them upset and it triggers us. Like you said, or, you know, sometimes it’s not even a trigger. It’s just a reactive response where you don’t really go anywhere, but you only know one way of interacting with someone who’s in this state.
And that’s usually from your past right so your brain backtracks and this is well when someone’s yelling I run away I Fight back I stand my ground to show them how strong I am I whatever it is and there’s that recognition that in the process of overriding the that automatic response and saying hold on I Have a job to do right
Robert Trout (07:55.16)
And I find a lot of people relate to that that idea of I have something I’m supposed to do right now versus the You know, I’m supposed to participate in this or run away from this or whatever their reaction would be it’s very much there’s a protocol to follow step one step two step three and they go through their kind of checklist to support this person that’s struggling but there’s the identification I can assess that this person is not present and
Feel capable that’s important I feel capable in this moment of being the person to help guide them out of the state of being there in To this side of that experience they’re having if you’re not capable if you’re too tired, you’re hungry You’re dehydrated you’re etc There has to also be that recognition that this battle is not going to be won right now So there’s the stepping away at times and realizing
Do you have the capacity to do this that that’s an awareness on the person? And then the answer or sorry if the answer is yes, I have the capacity to intervene and to deescalate this situation Then you now need to have the skill sets of doing that you agree with that or what comes up?
Paul (09:12.417)
Certainly, I think to expand upon one of those pieces that is recognizing that your child might be, or loved one, might be so dysregulated that they can’t hear you. Because, I mean, in past conversations, we’ve talked about flipped your lid. Flipped your lid is this concept of recognizing that the further up the scale of anger, fear, sadness, you know,
take it from zero to 10, when you get to like a 6.5, a seven, you’re actually moving out of the prefrontal cortex, the rational brain into the mid brain, the amygdala, or further even into the brain stem and the limbic system, is ultimately the place where we become in, or the place we get to survival. And so one of the things I said earlier is,
Why would I listen to you if you’re not listening to me? Something to add upon that, if they are very dysregulated and they’re saying things that are extremely hurtful and their face is beet red, or they’re crying and weeping and snot bubbles are coming out, you could see them highly, highly escalated. They’re not capable of hearing you. And that’s a really important thing to just be cognizant of is that understanding that when we are in our survival state,
We’re literally running from the bear and there’s nothing else to think about. It’s not about rationalizing with the bear. It’s running from the bear. And so the brain isn’t meant to actually take in information at that point, other than I need to get the heck out of here or I need to play dead. So being able to understand that aspect, again, Ravi said there’s so many different versions of, know, escalated states of being. If we look at the extreme end.
that’s something to hold on to and be very clear about and prepare yourself for is, they can’t hear me right now. They can’t understand that I might have the perfect solution, the golden ticket, the nugget that would solve all their problems. You can’t problem solve them in that moment. You can’t rescue them in that moment. Really the best thing, and this is where we’re headed in terms of skills is,
Paul (11:42.987)
The idea of just being with them. Co-regulation is a term that we often use, know, recognizing that if their nervous system is amped and they’re in that hyper-vigilant, hypo-arousal sort of space, they’re not capable of slowing down. And so they have to be able to co-regulate or what we can do, a sense of purpose, like you were saying, Rob, is we can actually slow ourselves down. So this goes back to what we were saying earlier.
Slowing ourselves down and being calm and taking care of ourselves in that moment is step number one. To then be able to show up for them and help them slow down. Because if we have wide eyes, for instance, or we have a tone that sounds like we’re little anxious or we’re trying to grasp at something here, that’s not going to help them feel calm or feel safe. We need to be able to slow ourselves down, soften our throat, soften our…
Robert Trout (12:20.203)
Thank
Paul (12:41.333)
you know, the tension in our chest, release our belly, you know, and these are all self care practices that in the moment are hard to achieve and do, but you know, we need to be able to develop that skill. I mean, as we talk about many times, Rob, step one of doing any sort of change in the house starts with, you know, the parents taking care of themselves and understanding what it means for them to slow themselves down in the midst of crisis. And so being able to work with yourself.
then opens the door for the child to feel safe, opens the door for the child to actually slow themselves down. And we can see these markers of slowing down from the face not being read anymore, the tone that they’re expressing, the volume that they’re expressing through, the language, and they might be actually stone silent and curled up in a ball and sheets over their head, right? And you might…
Robert Trout (13:15.298)
Yes.
Robert Trout (13:33.228)
Yep.
Paul (13:39.197)
recognize that the shoulders are tucked up by their ears and at a certain point their shoulders actually relax or their body language shifts or you hear them take a deep breath. Those are all great markers that things are shifting towards better. So it’s about paying attention not only to them but also yourself. So yeah, I’ll toss it back to you Rob.
Robert Trout (14:01.486)
Yeah. Well, for the parent that’s listening, what Paul just said, you know, being under the covers, like tucked into a ball, that’s the other end typically where people look at that and they’re like, Oh, well, that’s not deescalation. It’s like, yeah, it is. That’s anxiety at the like highest core depression, at its highest state where this person has reached that level 10 in the opposite direction from the kids is punching kid holes in the walls or punching you.
Paul (14:11.233)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (14:15.852)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (14:30.594)
The opposite of that is hiding from the world, like incapable movement or speech or things like that, which leads into kind of the steps of de-escalation as we kind of do the basics. The step one you mentioned earlier, reflective listening. But that is an assessment piece where you can only listen if they’re willing to talk.
So step one or level one for me when it comes to de-escalation and understanding it is testing on where they are on their state of being. And speech is kind of the default. Parents like to ask questions or make demands or whatever it might be, but that interaction is very verbal. And we see quite often that that’s where things start falling apart.
Or it’s where it stalls out because the parent just wants to be heard or listened to in that moment, but the kid’s not reacting. They’re gone. The parent’s failing to see that they’re not at a state where language means anything. That can go in both directions. Okay. So level one is that which gets into reflective listening. If they’re willing to talk, then we’re looking at a mid range lock and those kids are easier to bring back.
because they’re already a state where language might actually make an impact. If they’re not there, level two is to switch over to nonverbal. So we’re looking at body language techniques, neurological tricks related to like getting the brain to recognize safety, like you said earlier. And those are all skills that parents can learn and develop. But it starts by recognizing that your words don’t mean anything right now. We need to go deeper into the brain.
which gets into that physical touch or non-touch verbal or sorry, non-verbal language and techniques. This is the kid that’s refusing to get out of bed and instead of yelling or saying anything, you get into bed right next to them and start playing music, right? Things like that can make all the difference in the world as a de-escalation to bring them out of where they are to a place that, hey, I’m right here with you.
Robert Trout (16:48.782)
So we’re headed towards that co-regulation. And then for me, after that, when it comes to de-escalation and understanding it, if verbal’s not gonna work and non-verbal’s not gonna work, now we’re getting to sensory. And that’s where we get into smells and bodily needs. You know, that’s where you make tea that’s very fragrant and you bring it in and you put it next to their bed and you walk away. You give them space, but it’s the…
The smells and the music and the you know the window being open and the fresh air or whatever it might be now We’re getting to that deep animal brain of the basics of life and that life is okay right now. There’s that sense of safety so Really? It’s an evaluation of where are they and where can you start from to start bringing them back to a place of? Recognizing that you’re there for them that there’s safety for this and that there’s not a pressure of being
Like you need to get here now. It’s the agenda is gone. The timeline is gone and we’re just going to bring you out of the state that you’re in and it’s going to take time. And I reckon.
Thoughts on that?
Paul (18:04.919)
I think it’s worth building upon that last point and recognizing that when we’re talking about de-escalation, even if you’re doing reflective listening well, it’s not just one single reflection and your kid just snaps back to you. It will take time, right? And it will take a sense of, for lack of a better way of saying it, self-control on the parent’s part to be able to be patient in that process.
And, you know, parents, I, gosh, we work with so many families that have these stories of, but this is the hundredth time I’ve been trying to get my kid out of bed and I’m pissed. This is the 15th time they’ve broken the window or snuck out and I’m over it. This is the, you know, it goes on and on. Right. And so there’s that.
recognition of your own exhaustion, your own fear, your own sadness, your own anger, your own irritability. I mean, the sustainability of what we’re asking, it’s a big ask. I’m not going to sugarcoat it. And, you know, there is quite a bit of nuance and, gosh, way more to be spoken to each individual case.
when we’re really unpacking this idea of deescalation. And so when it comes to ultimately being with your child, one of the biggest things that I hope that any parent takes away is, there’s this adage of go slow to be efficient. Slow yourself down to make the progress. Because if you speed up and you try and pressure them into change,
It’s just going to keep them activated in whatever direction, whether it’s stuck in their bed or moving towards fisticuffs, because that’s just the reality. And so being in that place where you can slow down goes back to what you were saying, Rob, of, know, it’s not just slowing down in terms of talking slower. It’s like softening your body language, softening your facial expression, being conscious of your presentation, and maybe even moving.
Paul (20:26.751)
yourself through the house. There’s tools like redirection to kind of shift the energy or shift the tension and moving yourself back away and thinking about proximity and space. you know, one of the things that we talk a lot about is a sense of safety. And for every single parent, I will say it, if you don’t feel safe, move yourself out of the space. You know, if you don’t feel safe, that’s priority number one.
Even if you think your kids are unsafe, if you don’t feel safe, you’re not capable of deescalating them. And so being able to support yourself ultimately supports your child. So go slow to be efficient. And it’s a very difficult thing to just jump right into. So think about the patterns that you’ve been in with your child. Think about what has been happening.
Think about what you might even be able to predict in a future moment. And if you’re seeing these patterns of wake sleep cycle challenges or behaviors around contributing to the household or school or substance use. You when we’re talking about deescalation, I mean, there’s all these nuances. I mean, if your kid is altered, meaning they’re on some substance, the conversation is not available. There’s no conversation to be had.
And so when we’re talking about deescalation, sometimes the best thing you can do is take space from them. Give them the opportunity to calm down, give them the opportunity to sober up. Right. And so that takes a little bit of it again, more. Well, I hate saying a little bit. It takes self-control and it takes understanding of what is the best set and setting. What is the best timing? Because if you’re just banging your head against the wall,
Robert Trout (22:14.082)
Yes.
Paul (22:24.299)
you’re just banging your head against the wall, you know, when it comes to being with your child. So go slow to be efficient.
Robert Trout (22:26.221)
Yes.
Robert Trout (22:31.406)
And there’s an acknowledgement in that That I feel like we do need to drive home a little bit if they’re not capable of becoming present That’s not the time You I mean de-escalation can happen later. You need to let them process through especially if there’s a substance on board You need to let them sleep it off or run it off or whatever. They’re doing
And then recognize right like step one for this for almost everything that we teach is assessment You have to do an assessment to find out is now an appropriate time to try to teach the escalate or Set a boundary or whatever your processes. I don’t care what it is Assessments gonna be key Then you can step into the process and say they’re close enough that I feel capable
So there’s my self-assessment. I feel capable of being able to de-escalate this starting by testing verbal, then going non-verbal, and then going anal to that third state of sensory work like that. Now, then there has to be the acknowledgement of saying, you are going to have to do this over and over and over again. I know it’s the biggest frustration I think I, you know, our whole careers, I’ve heard it over and over and over again.
It didn’t work and we had constantly how many times did you try it? Well, we tried it once It’s like no You have I mean sometimes 10 sometimes 18 sometimes 40 years of Patterns you’re trying to now offset You have to put in an equalized effort to that to interact differently to Deescalate differently to intervene differently and it takes time
and effort to do a practice over and over again. And that might be my last point to this as a parent that’s listening to this. Understand that when we’re talking about the skill sets, not only the process, but the skill sets is that parents often arrive at a point of asking for help only after they’re exhausted. And that’s OK. We get it. That’s why that
Robert Trout (24:56.184)
happens is you reach a point where you realize you can’t do this anymore. Something different needs to happen. And when you start implementing skills and learning new ways of being, new ways of interacting, new ways of setting up structure and boundaries and processes, you are going to have to have enough energy to implement them. And that’s where, you know, we become redundant on self-care, taking your time and choosing your battles.
All of these things are necessary for long-term change in any behavior or family system. So I guess that’s the point I would want to leave this on for myself is just the, have to go through all the steps, including the learning how to be different. The learning, the skills is half the battle because you can’t just keep doing the same thing you’ve always done. That’s what led to your exhaustion in the first place. So.
There’s the acknowledgement that what you have tried has not worked. And sometimes it’s just taking what you think you know and tweaking it a little bit and making it different so it becomes effective. It’s really amazing how having the outside perspective changes everything.
or what would be your closing thoughts for families on this?
Paul (26:16.363)
I have another tip as well as some closing thoughts. The last suggestion or tip that I would offer is take away the audience when you’re trying to deescalate, which means that if there are siblings in the house or extended family in the house or peers in the house or community in the house or wherever you’re at, take the conversation somewhere else or ask the other people to leave.
Robert Trout (26:18.786)
Go for it.
Paul (26:44.851)
because oftentimes it’s hard to, especially if a child or a teen or a young adult feel like they’re grasping at control and they want to maintain some sort of hierarchical perception. If they have an audience, man, they’re going to get dug in, right? It’s going to be much more difficult for them to actually let go, slow down, feel safe, be receptive after you calm them down. And so,
Robert Trout (27:01.038)
Yeah.
Paul (27:13.931)
That would be my one last suggestion is remove the audience. Create the space for it to be a safe space where it doesn’t need to be bigger than it actually is. That said.
I’m going to go back and repeat myself and say, why would I listen to you if you’re not listening to me? And recognize that if they are really highly escalated, they’re not capable of hearing you because they’re not in that front part of their brain where they can receive new information. They’re somewhere else in that stress response and that fear trauma response. So why would I listen to you if you’re not listening to me? And go slow to be efficient.
And in order to do those two things, you know, slow yourself down first. So those are, those are the things that I hope that any parent takes away from this conversation. And of course, in terms of diving into the nuance of skills, reflective listening, the idea of redirection, the idea of, you know, proximity, body language, and all of these things, and maybe even unpacking your reactivity, please reach out to us. Give us a, an opportunity to support you.
to help you find your way and ultimately help your child find their way.
Robert Trout (28:38.284)
Alright, so if this resonates with you as a parent, give us a call. Set up a time to talk about what we can do to help you or a direction you might want to step into. You can find us at parenttrainers.com and we look forward to supporting you.
