Robert Trout (00:02.062)
Hello and welcome to the Parent Problems Today podcast, where we go over issues that are relevant for families with tweens, teens, and young adults who are going through mental or behavioral health crises, or just in general are starting to struggle with things that catch them off guard. Today, it’s myself, Robert Trout, and Mary Zaunbrecher from the Parent Trainers team coming to talk about a subject that kind of comes in and out of focus, is kind of the way I think of it, because this is a circumstance that
No parent wants to find themselves in, but when it happens, it usually happens secretly a little bit. And when it actually comes to full focus for the family, they are very often caught off guard. And this subject is about young adults and is very much tied to the failure to launch kind of a mentality or process for a family to kind of decipher what is happening.
for their kid. And in this circumstance, the kids, know, 18, 19, 20, typically, where today’s topic is looking at, hey, mom and dad, I failed out of college. Now what? And we just want to have a general conversation today with any parent that this is relevant for, or that just has a fear that this might be something that they face. And it is a little bit predictable.
I mean, we definitely have families that kids are 16, 17, 18, they’re graduating high school. And very often the kids that we see the failing out after a semester or a year, or sometimes the second year, as they’re going through a college process, very often you can see patterns of this in the kids that, and let’s just get some basic examples. One, they were scaffolded all through high school. They had every level of support.
tutors at home, people in the classroom, one on one support. They had all of this work that the school system or parents kind of worked with to really hold it together. And we hear that a lot, hold it together until they graduate. It’s like that finish line that the family and the school is very often pushing for because their numbers matter, right? Like this kid needs to graduate and they need to move on so they can count that as a win.
Robert Trout (02:27.37)
And schools, when it’s the high schools, really scaffold these kids a lot. And then they go, OK, go to college. And you go to college, and you’re all on your own. And there might be some supports, but it’s nowhere near the level that we can see in high school scenarios. That would be number one. Number two for predictable in this is really looking at kids that they haven’t developed a sense of resiliency around self-care.
So they’ve never had to cook for themselves, never had to take care of social relationships on their own, or clean their dorm room, or all the basic life skills. These are things that were overlooked. And that’s a predictable process of looking and saying, you were dropped into a container where all of a sudden the expectations are drastically different than what you were used to as a 16, 17, or 18-year-old as you finished high school.
And now we just suddenly say, OK, be an adult. And there’s no judgment in this. I want every parent to hear that. There’s no judgment in this. We’re talking about the predictable patterns that lead very often to this circumstance of today’s topic. So Mary, any other thoughts on that? Just the predictability of saying, hey, you may want to head this off before it even becomes a problem? Any thoughts on that?
Mary (03:50.635)
Yeah, I think you hit two big points that come up for me most times with working with families is that either there’s a child with some sort of learning disorder or some sort of issue that prevents them from being able to, let’s say, take tests within a certain time frame in a normal classroom who have been supported in
in a way that is really nuanced. And then those kids that I’ve seen, you know, when looking at young adults and how did we get here, that just don’t have any idea how to time manage or switch between schoolwork and life, right? And manage both of those things all at once when someone’s not kind of moving the day along for them.
I would say other issues that I’ve seen are just like kids who go from no freedom in the home to now just abounding freedom as a young adult and choose maybe to be more social than sit down with a book every night. And then kids who maybe were keeping some of their drug or alcohol use at a
level that was not super concerning for parents that now maybe have greater access. And I think you also hit another great point, which is a lot of times this happens in secret, meaning that maybe parents are watching the grades, maybe they’re not, right? Which is this newfound thing that we can do now is log on and look at our kids’
But a lot of times what happens is parents don’t know the extent of what’s going on. And the kids themselves, the young adults themselves, hold a lot of shame. And so they try to prevent parents from knowing because they think, this is going to be a burden. maybe I can pick it up by the end of the semester. Maybe I can do something different. And then, boom, end of semester, end of year, end of quarter, parents are very surprised.
Mary (06:14.689)
to see that something has happened either with grades or just in daily life, in social life, and things like that, maybe they start hearing from them less. So there are all kinds of little cues to think about when thinking about how is my child functioning? And I think our role is to figure out where’s the sweet spot between knowing too much and stepping in too much and
Robert Trout (06:27.33)
Yes.
Robert Trout (06:40.334)
Thanks.
Mary (06:44.461)
being a support for your child.
Robert Trout (06:47.168)
Absolutely. Yeah. And to be clear with every parent that’s listening, it goes both ways. There is a surprise element and we see that a lot. I think it’s safe to say that with the families we work with, most of them were surprised. They didn’t know it was that bad. They didn’t know that their son or daughter was going through a mental health process at school. And again, shame, depression, anxiety, all of these things that come up, those all are a driving force and they’re like, well, I can’t tell them I’m struggling.
Right? It’s like, I’m supposed to have figured it out. I’m an adult now. And those behaviors really shift very often into the, I’m going to hide it and hide it and hide it. And then suddenly when it comes out and it always comes out, it’s a big surprise. It shakes the family system. Parents are usually scared and upset a little bit in that circumstance, which is understandable. And I mean, the flip side to that are the parents that like, they get a sense of, okay, you know, they they’re struggling.
and they start to try to participate and support, but we still see even knowing that this might be a possibility, there are certain behavior patterns on the parent’s side that can, I’m gonna say drastically impact how this unfolds, including the socialized pressure that a lot of parents put on their kids that college is the answer and they’re gonna like whatever it takes to get you to that finish line. And I’ve worked with.
lot of young adults that when I really got into the conversation with them about college and failing out and things like that, I mean, I’ll just jump straight to my number one. My number one is the kid didn’t care about the degree they were getting. They felt forced into choosing something. know, college is the way, the truth and the light, you know, et cetera. When for that kid, like, you know, taking some gap experiences years before college might have been really helpful.
They don’t have a sense of investment in whatever they’re studying in that sense. And very often they’re just burned out on school. And some of those are the kids that they were scaffolded so much in high school. And then all of a sudden it’s like you get a summer and now you’re right back into this education process that you were exhausted of before you even got here. But now we expect you to do it alone. Just those kind of dynamics that play out so much in this.
Mary (09:15.405)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (09:15.83)
Now, yeah, there’s, God, there’s so much to this when I really actually start talking about it, because there are dynamics that start to unfold here where the parents have strategies that I know we teach and kind of step into. And I’ll talk about some of those here where it’s like, okay, strategy number one is if you’re surprised, which is what we want to talk about today, you’re surprised now what? The strategies that come into that is first of all,
to just don’t react. Any reaction is gonna set the tone of what’s going to happen next for your kid. And the truth is, is that you can put them up where it’s like, okay, this wasn’t working for you. Let’s step into strategy number one, where we build a process together that says, okay, well, you’re not coming home. I need every parent to hear that. You’re not coming home because this didn’t work out. You still need to go.
And figure this out and I want to be clear that a large part of that strategy is in place because usually there’s some kind of mental health or behavioral health or learning education process or something there that we have to be very open with our families about in the sense that this kid, if you bring them home and they have failed and they feel that shame, that anxiety, all those things, and you bring them home and put them back in their old bedroom where they were for high school. We.
Very often, mean, Mary, you and I can go on for this for hours. We see in so many cases that because that’s what you did in reaction, you cocoon them and put them back in this old space. They lock in there. And now the problem isn’t that your kid failed out of school. The problem is your kid won’t leave their bedroom. They won’t go get a job. They won’t consider a next step because
They’re just, they’re gonna hide in that bedroom. And we see that for all kinds of reasons from different mental health processes that develop, anxiety, social anxiety, failure, shame, trauma of leaving school for a variety of reasons. Autism, late diagnosed autism is a huge part of this where they’re on the spectrum somewhere and there’s that black and white element where they lock in.
Robert Trout (11:39.04)
And it’s like, no, I live here now. And they do. They really lock into that. And again, these aren’t solid, like everybody’s in this circumstance. I’m clear about that. We’re just talking about the patterns that we see most generally when we start talking to parents that are like, we don’t know what happened. And that’s the surprise. But it’s also the now they’re stuck and they don’t know what to do about it. What are your first thoughts on that?
Mary (12:06.069)
Well, and the flip side of that is, you know, I’m not surprised because my kid has been calling me seven times a day, you know, worried and anxious, right? And so we find a lot of parents on that side of it, you know, tend to be the rescuer or have been the rescuer, right? Which is like, my gosh, you know, it’s okay if you can’t do it. I’ve got it. And it’s born out of love, right? And care. But
Robert Trout (12:10.254)
Good
Mary (12:33.323)
I think when I’m thinking about those first steps, yeah, our first gut knee-jerk reaction is, okay, we got you. We got you, come home, right? And again, born out of love and like, let’s figure this out together. But a lot of times parents aren’t the people that need to be problem solving with their kid. They need to continue to utilize the support on campus to say, what happened? What’s going on?
what resources do you all have to support me in, you know, jumping back into this in a way that actually works. And a lot of campuses do offer support, whether that’s counseling or some sort of learning and educational, you know, program for kids who need extra scaffolding in college, right? And then, you know, we’re talking
talking about people like us who are, you know, can train and coach and, and, and support kids and executive functioning skills, time management skills, right? Organization, those sorts of things that maybe was just kind of done for them in high school or there was just a standard that was set, right? And so yeah, in thinking about that knee jerk reaction of let’s figure this out together, truly consider.
Am I the person to be doing this or do I have a lot of feelings about what’s going on that are going to get in the way of me objectively supporting my child in what they say they need, right? Because it’s one thing to be like, oh yeah, we can figure this out. It’s another to hear your kid say, I just want to take a year off and work a GameStop and travel, right? And not…
not respond to that and like, what, wait, what? We’ve had this plan for years and here, what are you saying? So what are the outside resources so that you can take a breather from swooping in and rescuing?
Robert Trout (14:37.347)
Yes.
Robert Trout (14:42.862)
Yeah, and there’s something really huge in that example. I want to take a year off and work at GameStop. That’s a plan. I mean, the number of families that they’re like, absolutely not. You have to do it like this. Well, that rigidity is on the parent’s side, not the kid’s side. Very often, parents shut down very viable plans that this kid understands what they need right now.
Mary (14:49.613)
Absolutely. I love that.
Robert Trout (15:10.414)
I get it. That’s not the solution you would want but for them taking that year and just working and Hopefully paying rent or having their own apartment in space and all the things that would be very helpful in the front stages of this Those are the key things where it’s like absolutely you have a plan go enact that plan Absolutely, you need you you can do that because you’re an adult that rescuing very often
steps in and says, absolutely not, I have something better for you. And that’s a key part of the whole failure to launch mentality where family systems very often are responsible for the first level of containment that says you can hide in here for a while versus the you, you, you’re an adult and you get to make that decision. And I may not like it.
for me, but for you that might be the answer. And I’d like to have a conversation with you about returning to school in a year. Does that sound fair? By the way, that’s a skill. Everyone take that for free. There’s this whole element of recognizing the pattern, the process, and then you being the parent saying, absolutely, I recognize that you have a plan. That’s the language technique leading into the
And I’d love to have a conversation with you about a school or what you might want to do after that in a year. You give them the time and the space and you believe that seed planted, that going and doing this first level job or whatever they might do may not be the long-term solution. And you want them to understand that. So it’s like, yeah, go do what you need to do and I’ll be there when you’re ready to start looking at what’s going to be after that. So it builds these, I’m going to.
I don’t even know like moments in the future that you get to step into with them. So that language is also extremely important.
Mary (17:13.793)
Right, yeah. I was going to say that judgment, that knee-jerk judgment, right, is the exact reason most parents find themselves in this position. Because the child shuts down when they hear that you can do it better. Of course you can do it better. You’re older, you’re wiser. They don’t want to hear that. They want to have an active say and it’s age appropriate for them to have an active say in what they need. And again, building life skills sometimes is the precursor.
Robert Trout (17:21.987)
Yes.
Mary (17:42.049)
to being able to do the thing that is normal, which I hate that word, right?
Robert Trout (17:47.372)
Yes. Yeah, well, we all hate that word because normal is a take-all that people use to say you’re doing it wrong. You’re not normal is just a backstabbing like, hey, you’re not doing it the way the rest of us did it. Well, the truth is none of us did it exactly the same. We just have a societal like, hey, look how great that path worked out for all of us.
Mary (17:57.387)
Normal is a cycle.
Mary (18:04.992)
Right.
Robert Trout (18:13.602)
when in truth that path was never the same one person to another. We have to let that go as parents. We really do. So let’s look at this. Let’s kind of step into the conversation of like, that phone call comes in. Hey, I’m sorry. I can’t do this. I’m failing out. I’m not going to class. Whatever. Whatever the circumstances are, let’s just kind of look at this from the parent side in the sense of, OK,
that phase of going to school is over. Okay? Whether they’re getting kicked out, failing out, or, and this is the third category, they’re having a mental break. And they can’t do it emotionally, which is also completely valid. Everyone, please hear that. All three of those are circumstances that we see lead into this phase of life where the parents now have to say, okay, now what?
Now what so let’s look at the now what? I’ll kick it off with the sense that I always try to break things into steps and Anytime that I get a parent that’s I’m gonna say forward enough in there thinking to know like well We don’t know what to do. We should talk to somebody who’s you know guiding families through this when they get it really early I’m always gonna be that first advocate on the call to say okay Don’t tell them
Don’t like don’t use words and language around failure or that they are letting you down or that they need to try harder or all of that it’s like step one is to recognize that the language you use is going to set the tone for the experience maybe for the next few years. So really stepping into the parental education around looking and saying hey I see you.
If right now isn’t the time for you or you found your level of struggle that you You need to look at great. Tell me what you need We’re looking for that open-ended language here for any parent to open the conversation for them for their kid to share their internal emotional and life experience of What’s been happening for them and what’s happening right now?
Robert Trout (20:36.394)
and leaving the language open to say, first, I would like to understand you and the experience that you’ve had. And this is, I say this is level one for me because this is in complete opposite to the, I’m going to use the word, normal reaction that parents are feeling of like, my god, what happened?
Come here, let me protect you, hold you, I’ll tell you what to do to fix this. You know, all the, all the reactions, all the emotional vomit from the parent side is what we’re trying to prevent by stepping into this level one of language being the first thing. Cause very often this is happening on the phone. You’re not even with them yet. You might be flying to go get them, but you’re not there yet. So this is just the initial like,
Mary (21:20.29)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (21:27.392)
Okay, our worlds are all shifting. My thought paradigm is shifting. I don’t know how bad it is, etc. We have to take that fear and that the thoughts of, you know, did I fail you or whatever comes up and move it to the side and say, this is mine. I have to work on the stuff that’s coming up for me. The step, the first step is going to be that language skill of stepping in and saying, my job
My reaction is over here. My job over here is to open the story and to just bear witness and allow them to step into their experience and who they really are so I get a clear view and they feel validated and heard and non-judged. These are the key first steps in any format of this scenario unfolding.
Thoughts on that or what you think would come next?
Mary (22:28.289)
Yeah, thoughts on that are being curious, showing curiosity, not in a way that I’m going to problem solve this for you, give me all the data, right? But curious and like, what do you think, you know, was the hardest thing for you? What would you have done differently? Do you even know that yet? Right. Where do you think you need the most support?
Robert Trout (22:40.6)
Yeah. Yep.
Mary (22:56.749)
And being able to just help that young adult start to problem solve for themselves, right? Just by maybe, you know, it’s the first time they’ve gotten out of that shame spiral in their head and they are speaking it aloud. And by speaking things aloud, we’re more able to process what’s going on and problem solve for ourselves because we’re in that part of our brain associated with logic and reason, right?
And so how can you open up that conversation in a way that most people in general are not taught to do in conversation, right? And so this is a huge skill that we teach and help me understand what your experience is like. And let me just be a mirror for you. Let me just be a sounding board for you. And I’m going to leave all of what I think and what I believe and all of my wisdom.
right at the door and I’m just going to be here for you. And of course there are instances where maybe someone does need to step in a little bit more and support that process. But again, questioning yourself as the parent, is that me or is that someone else? Is that a career counselor? Is that, you know, anyone else? Yeah. And so that idea of opening up the conversation, leaving your reaction at the door, being curious.
and leaving all judgments and watching how you tend to express judgments, right?
Robert Trout (24:28.792)
Yep. Yeah, which leads into step two in every one of these scenarios. Step two is always going to be set your boundaries first as parents. And this is counterintuitive. We get that. I hear that already in every parent’s head as they hear us say this, because they’re like, well, shouldn’t we offer them
You know, whatever they need to feel good and safe and et cetera. And it’s like, actually, no. Step one is to set your boundaries in this process for yourself as parents, because very often this is the moment that you make your greatest mistake in a failure to launch situation where the kid gets stuck at home because nothing was ever set in stone. And I have families that when they do this process correctly, they even look at it and say, Oh, well, we don’t, we really don’t want them to come home. We’re not equipped.
to be best suited for them so they might need some kind of gap year trip or intervention program of some kind or something depending on what they were going through or even more commonly you know well let’s get you an apartment somewhere so you can get a job and you can support that a little bit in the beginning but even that’s a boundary of like we will pay for three months what a wonderful gift but but that’s the boundary when we talk about boundaries in the circumstances
What can you do that doesn’t rescue, sets them up with the possibility of success, supports the plan they told you from step one. And then finally within that is protects you and your resources, emotional resources, financial resources, and space resources, protects you as a family unit from the experience of them.
Because I, I mean, I know lots of kids that they love their parents and they say, I’ll take care of you. Because they’re struggling. And when you’re struggling, the idea of someone saying, come here, I got this, feels really warm and cozy. And then when you try to take that away later, there’s all kinds of mental health things that come up from like victim mentality to lashing out.
Robert Trout (26:50.25)
Fighting to keep themselves in that container things like that totally different podcast But just to put it out there like these are things to consider in step two where you as parents have to establish your boundaries before Any kind of process is started like that this needs to happen before they come home this conversation of okay Where are we starting that we will support you and you understand how that’s going to work?
And then you have to hold yourself to that first step of the plan that includes your boundaries of what you are and are not willing and able to do. Super important.
Mary (27:35.157)
Yeah. And boundaries actually, you you were talking about, you know, you just want to rescue to help kids feel safe and young adults feel safe. And boundaries are actually the more adept way, right? The way that actually leads to feeling more safety. And parents sometimes really struggle with this concept. But when we hold a container for someone and they know what is expected, their mind is freed up from guessing and wondering.
How long can I stretch this? Or how long am I gonna have support, right? And boundaries don’t have to be all or nothing, right? They can be, we wanna make sure that we’re checking in every month, every two weeks, whatever it is, maybe with the support of a professional so that we can make sure that this boundary that we’ve set is supporting everyone. And that means your freedom and independence and autonomy. That means your growth and learning. And that also means
our availability mentally and emotionally, right? And financially to get you to where you have said in the past you want to be and in step one, where you want to be.
Robert Trout (28:46.552)
Yes, yep. Yeah, and I mean that’s gonna lead us into step three and this is where parents really falter. Because the language you can practice and get really good at and get ready for it even just I have parents who write it on like a piece of paper and they’re on their phone like running the script and that’s okay in the beginning when you’re learning how to be that open and that communicative. Step two is the boundaries where parents like they have to slow down.
not be reactive and like, here’s where we can meet them in this process, understanding that we’re trying to avoid traps in what’s about to happen, not even consciously, but in the process of helping someone that’s in this emotional type of state. So you set those boundaries. And then step three is where it’s like, okay, now you have to do both of those things.
From now on. Step three is really honing in your ability to hold those boundaries and hold that line of recognizing that like my child needs someone or something, some kind of intervention, therapeutic support, process, etc. And that doesn’t have to come from me. I can support it. We can help pay for some things. We can make sure it’s in front of them and that it’s there.
But very often step three is where the falter happens because if the parents are scared that this is going to get worse or, you know, et cetera, that’s where they like, boundaries are gone. Just move back home. We’ll figure it out later. And I hate to, you know, this isn’t a scare attack. This is just true. mean, we’ve had families we’ve supported where kids have been in the basement for 10, 15 years and they just never left.
They developed a behavioral pattern around that failure to launch into a, well, why would I leave? All my needs are getting met and I don’t need anything else. And a lot of them never get jobs and they never socialize and they go into gaming addictions or other addictions, honestly. And we see the parents always just playing with that fear of, well, if I don’t do this, they’ll do something horrible or whatever. And it’s like, well, they’re still stuck.
Robert Trout (31:09.048)
So step three is prevent the stuck. And the way you do that is keep the communication open, honor what you can and cannot do, and then build the boundaries to protect yourself from the experience your child’s about to have while allowing that connection to remain intact, but then holding that line. Because they have to go. They have to figure out how to stand on their own.
and that rescuing mentality or crossing that line over is only going to make it worse for all parties considered. That’s just the honest, blunt truth. Am I wrong?
Mary (31:52.653)
No, not at all. And I like to say the way that you prepare for this is when you are creating boundaries, create the consequence. And we’re not talking about punishment, old school, you you’re going to get what’s coming to you. We’re talking about, hey, if within three months you are still struggling to pay your own rent or something has come up,
then we’re not just going to swoop in. What we’re going to do, action step, right? That yes, you’re keeping the lines of communication open so that you don’t get to month three and then say, okay, we’re good. Are you good? And then you’re surprised, right? But that you have a plan B for if this, if you’re still struggling at this point, you need more support than just making a plan with us or then just what we’ve.
we’ve listed out or done for you or what we’ve put in your plan. And so really thinking about what are the ways that you are relying on community support, community services, services of professionals, and allowing your young adult to not only have their experience, but process it with someone who is not you.
someone who is not emotionally tied to that outcome. And making sure that you are taking care of yourself in the same way, where you’re processing this and you are checking in, checking in with your co-parent and with someone who can help support you in staying strong with those boundaries. And in saying, if I’m not enough, if what I came up with and they came up with is not enough,
to support them what is, right?
Robert Trout (33:50.242)
Yes. Yep. Yeah. I mean, honestly, at this point, it’s final thoughts. And final thoughts for me are flexibility with boundaries. Flexibility with boundaries. And taking care of yourself as a parent, understanding that your child has to struggle to practice skills and actionable steps.
to set up their own structure for their own life.
That’s where this is going. And it’s going to be hard. Please don’t hear any downplay in that. This is hard. And I don’t know any parent that likes to see their kids struggle. And I see lots of parents who learn that that’s necessary for the brain and the development of the self and the process for them to say that was for the kid to say that was hard. And I figured it out my own way.
That’s the goal. That’s where we’re headed for this. And those kids might never return to college. I mean, so many examples I have of kids that like one kid college wasn’t his way. He ended up in blacksmithing school. The parents were like, what is this? Turns out he makes a tremendous amount of money. In blacksmithing, it’s like, my God. And they’re so proud now, but it had to be him saying,
I found this. And that’s just one example of like the unexpected twist where the flexibility also plays into that. Whereas the parent, you let them try the things they’re drawn to, to figure out how they’re going to live. Because in the end, this isn’t about you or what you thought your kids should do or what their life path should look like. When we look at value to launch, this is
Robert Trout (35:49.518)
truly about parental and family system flexibility for the kid to awaken into a place of saying I made my life and it works for me and That’s a level of health that we could only dream of for a lot of these
Mary (36:06.121)
Absolutely. What I say is we’re our goal, hopefully, is to help your child become the best version of themselves. And within that is just so much in terms of letting go of your expectations other than for health and discovery and identity development and all of those really crucial things that helped us get to the point that we were at at 19.
22, 25, 30, right? That it is a hard process when you’re talking about watching your child learn about themselves. And a lot of times what we see is they’ve gotten to this point because they have not learned enough about themselves and how to function and how to be resilient and how to be assertive. And so being able to just continually ask yourself the question, how am I supporting my child?
becoming the best version of themselves. And sometimes that’s going really slow or what feels slow to parents in the beginning so that that development can take place and then launching your child into that place where they can say, I know what I want and I’m going after it and I can be a healthy, happy, successful, self-reliant person.
who calls to check in, not to beg for support, right? Yeah.
Robert Trout (37:39.672)
Yep. Very good. Well, if you’re a parent and you’re worried about this, then take the preventative steps. If you’re a parent and this is happening to you, take the steps to reverse how you’re working with this. And we just hope this has been helpful. Come find us at parenttrainers.com and do one of our intensive trainings and get some coaching support from all of us and join the community to get
Support from not just us, but all the families that are struggling with similar things. Let’s work together to find action steps to actually change your life.
