Robert Trout (00:01.312)
Hello and welcome to the Parent Problems Today podcast. I’m your host Robert Trout from the Parent Trainers Community and I’m joined by Mary Zahnbrinker, one of the head and lead coaches that works with families all over the world. We’re coming today with a topic that can carry a lot of emotional weight but is definitely something that every person that has a child and we’re talking about teens, tweens, and young adults for our work mostly. But I also feel like this topic covers everybody.
doesn’t matter how old the child is, doesn’t matter kind of what the dynamic is necessarily. The truth is, is that when we step into the conversation around the family system struggles, that there’s so much that comes out of that, that category. And today we’re going to try to focus on a reality that so many families struggle with where
We have this condition that we’ve talked about on a lot of podcasts and in our trainings and things that we do online about what’s called the identified patient. And what typically happens is families will get to us because they’re saying my child is struggling. And that can be with addictions or behavioral outbursts or school refusal or so many things that can be going on. But as we step into that, what we really want families to hear us on is that
Just because you think your child is struggling doesn’t mean you fully understand why. And the reason for that is we have to step into a very uncomfortable situation sometimes where we talk about the mental health, the functional health of the entire family system. And let’s just kind of jump right into it because there’s some major topics that come along with this.
And the first one that comes up for me is understanding that when there’s a mental health process happening and you identify and say my kid is struggling, the truth is, is that the kid might be reacting to someone else’s struggle. So one of the first things that comes out of this conversation is very often an awareness that we need to seek out maybe the root. Maybe that’s an app metaphor for it, but we’re looking for the piece of the puzzle.
Robert Trout (02:22.291)
that might be causing the system to shake or shatter, depending on what metaphor you’re in at the moment with what’s going on within your family system. So let’s start there. Let’s look at Mary, let’s kind of talk about the mental health aspect of the parent or the co-parent or sometimes the grandparent or another sibling or I mean, family systems can involve a lot of different people on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.
But when we talk about this, Mary, what’s the first thing that comes to mind for you when we start saying like, okay, let’s look at the health of the whole system.
Mary (03:00.908)
Yeah, my brain kind of jumps to science where, you know, that saying that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. And what I like to explain this as is, you know, we’re all essentially in each system that we, we exist in, right. And especially in the family unit, we’re all sort of like cogs in a machine. And so any time that someone
is going through something in the family, whether that be long term or short term, right? We can all expect to see that impact the rest of the family. And a lot of times, we get really caught up as older adults, right? And thinking that we are being affected, or we’ve got to contain what’s happening for us. So our kids don’t see, right? Or kids don’t hear.
us talking about it. But in reality, those situations, those events can cause that ripple effect, whether we’re talking about it, trying to hide it or not, right? And so many times, that’s where we start is that there can be a presence about each person in the family that’s not explicitly spoken.
but that we pick up on, right? Because of our mirror neurons in our brain, children especially are highly attuned to noticing, you know, that the kids these days call it the vibe, right? The vibe is off. And so what we really start with are these nonverbal cues that parents may be not noticing about themselves.
that may be impacting the rest of the family. And then we also talk about normalizing struggle, right? And normalizing these processes that we have been through as older adults. How do we show our children who are existing in this world for the first time, right? We forget that. you know, it’s normal to have…
Mary (05:21.066)
It’s normal to feel anxious. It’s sometimes normal to have periods where we don’t feel like interacting as much with the outside world. And how do we do that in a way that is effectively role modeling, self-care, and effectively role modeling, reaching out for support without dumping.
on our children, right? So I know that was a lot, but those are the first two big things that come up when thinking about parents struggling. And yeah, sometimes, like I said, it can be long term, right? We have parents who have their own traumas and stories that impact every everything. I have a lot of parents who say, you know, I’m really learning how to reparent myself in this process.
And then we’ve got plenty of families who are in crisis and have kind of drifted into crisis, so to speak, over such a long period of time that they’re not realizing what’s actually going on. They’re having a hard time actually seeing what’s going on.
Robert Trout (06:30.458)
Yeah, this is where like we teach about timetables to so many families and Oftentimes there’s some confusion with that because they’re like well How is this helping my child and let me give an example of a timetable? kind of practice for families to use is I’ll get a call from someone and they’ll they’ll start telling me about the school refusal or the depression or maybe self-harm or different elements that their kid is going into
Mary (06:35.822)
Thanks
Robert Trout (06:57.543)
And I’ll just start with, well, how long ago did that start? And they’ll say like, well, nine months ago. And then I’ll pause and go, okay, what was happening to the family nine months ago? Not the kid. I don’t want to know what was necessarily going on for them in general, but you know, did dad lose his job or mom lose her job? did someone, did the parents separate for a short amount of time to have space from each other?
Did the grandparent die? Did the dog die? Like so many things that the family skips over, because it’s just a blip in their problem solving as parents without realizing that the impact, either the behavioral impact or the mental health impact, the even traumatic impact and
Mary (07:34.84)
Right.
Robert Trout (07:53.17)
I give this example that you you can be in a car all full of four of you as a family maybe and you run into a pole with the car not terrible but you know it was swerve you scream every the car hits the thing and three of you get out of the car and look at it and go my god I’m so like are you okay you okay everybody’s good like okay we’re gonna be okay but that fourth person is still sitting in the car holding their breath and clenching
because their versatility and their ability to bounce back from the fear that was enacted within the experience is not the same as everybody else’s. So the timeline activities within that metaphor is the example of going back in time and saying, okay, what maybe started this for this individual? But the truth is, is that event impacted everyone within the family system.
And we have to dig out those roots, those pieces, and say, okay, we need to go back and not make it about this one person, but we need to treat the whole family system, right? Like, that’s the whole family system’s model is recognizing that the parent has power within the dynamic of them learning to be different, of them recognizing their own mental health and challenges. And then as you were saying, Mary,
bringing that to the forefronts and saying, I might react and this is a part of my struggle and educating everyone within the family system that I’m human and I have my own trauma or history or reactions and things and I’m going to acknowledge they exist because I want you to understand it wasn’t all about you. If I vented or screamed at you or reacted to you, that’s on me too. Like, yes, you probably did something, but that doesn’t make you a bad kid.
for example, that makes it a, was at my max and you were doing this and we need to look at both of those things. Not just the, you’re the problem. You set me off. You, you know, the labeling and the directional energy is such a component of treating the entire family system within that honesty and that practice.
Mary (09:56.621)
Yeah.
Mary (10:13.046)
Yeah, yeah. Something that comes to mind is something that actually just happened yesterday in a family that I’m working with, which is that, you know, mom is is dysregulated because one of her daughters is refusing to get up, get out of bed, get moving. Right. And the other daughter is is out.
of bed, she’s actually in a tutoring session and she’s fixing herself a little snack because it’s lunchtime. And because of mom’s anxiety around this other situation that’s not present with us in the kitchen, the other child actually gets scolded for getting up to do something other than the tutoring. So there’s these little micro ways that…
this can even happen in family situations in the day to day, that if we’re not having someone kind of reflect to us or help us recognize, then we may not ever catch that, right? And so the larger impact is looking at how are we more effectively communicating? How are we more effectively giving feedback and setting boundaries with each other?
when we’re noticing it. And so a lot of times I’m actually having co-parents be the ones who are starting to give the feedback and learn to give feedback in a way that it can be received. And they’re starting to set the boundaries with each other in terms of what we need as a family, right? What our decision will be as a family. So a lot of times there’s this, yeah, there’s this little dance that
families have to do around, you know, feeling differently as co-parents around a certain situation. And then we talk about how do we find that great area? How do we meet in the middle, right? How do we come to some sort of agreement on how we’re going to shift or how are we going to approach the day to day from here on out?
Robert Trout (12:25.951)
Absolutely. Yeah, there’s so many examples here, right? Families over the years that have run into these scenarios where the answer wasn’t within the one kid It was within recognizing the interactions of the entire family system And I think that’s what we’re trying to convey in today’s episode is if you’re a parent and you’re listening to this The reality is is this is the moment that we talk about all the time where it’s like, okay step one stop
stop what’s happening and step back and reflect and say, role am I playing in the pattern in the event that’s occurring in front of me? Because if you’re frustrated and fighting with your child in front of you or reacting to something, then you’re in a space that you’re just participating in the shaker shatter of the family system itself. So we have to step.
out of that if we want to change anything at all. That’s just always going to be step one. And then we have to back up and say, okay, if we look at the examples of what’s happened in the past, that’s the moment where it’s like if they’re doing a coaching session, I often will say, okay, I hear what they did. What did you do to set that off or participate in making it worse or whatever the story is they were sharing with me on the, in the coaching session?
It very much is a okay. Hold on. This has nothing to do with your kid. Yes, your kid struggles. We know that and to treat this to impact this to change this we have to go into the family system and you can only control what you do and say and your actions and intentions. So if the parent is the one listening to this podcast and saying, my God, how do I get them out of bed? my God, how do I get them to do their homework or
How do I get them to clean their room? Or, how do I get them to stop smoking pot? Or, I don’t care. I don’t care what it is. That’s the wrong question. The question we have to back into is, how can I live, act, and impact the experience they’re having by creating relationship, rapport, and boundaries? Those are our key elements here, and let’s make sure I define those.
Robert Trout (14:49.245)
Relationship is them understanding your role as their parent not their friend Not their warden not any other title you want to give but as the parent the one who is teaching them Right, then the rapport is how am I creating the rapport? the the bank of Energy that we care about each other and will show up if we ever need each other, right? That’s the the bonding element
And then the final piece to that is really looking at, okay, the boundaries are my, setting up the structure around them using the family system, culture, and kind of the limits of what you have as a family as tools. How do I create the boundaries so that when they act out or have this negative experience or make a stupid decision, they hit a wall?
And that wall is about safety, right? So within the family system is where we’re trying to keep it because once it leaves the family system, I mean, so often we run into boundaries that are set by the school or culture where now they’re in legal trouble because what was happening spread out to such a point that we as the family system have no control to teach them. Boundaries are about keeping them in a space of learning what’s appropriate
within the family system to set the example of what’s going to be acceptable outside of that system within, I’m going to say, the larger picture of culture and things like that. Thoughts on that, Mary?
Mary (16:27.438)
Yeah, you know, a part of this is just recognizing that if we set more effective boundaries with each other, and especially as a parent with children, then we’re spending less time focusing on them. And the problem, we’re letting the boundary do the work.
and we’re not sweeping other things under the rug, like relationship, right? How am I in relationship with my child enough that they feel safe coming to me before they’re hitting these boundaries, where they’re asking questions or asking for suggestions, or they know how to resource themselves, right? So yeah, that idea of being the parent that puts up the boundaries and then can spend less time in this state of
leaving everything is urgent when it’s not, right? That’s one of the concepts that we teach. And then being able to see that maybe the child or the children who are not the identified patient, right, actually needs some attention too, right? And really taking care of that whole system rather than just overly focusing on what seems to be
the person, the thing, the situation, the event, that’s really rupturing the way that the family system operates.
Robert Trout (17:53.088)
Absolutely So let’s let’s kind of turn this a little bit for the listener When we start looking at solutions, right for the family system So if you’re if you’re the family and you’re recognizing like, okay, this kid is struggling Then we back off and we take the larger view and say okay What if it’s not just the kid that’s struggling? What if it’s the whole family system?
What would be the questions, Mary, that you would start a family thinking about this? What questions would come up of like, hey, start here?
Mary (18:31.49)
Yeah, I start with looking at patterns. What do the patterns tend to be? And what are the ways that you are stepping into that pattern or that role in that pattern when these things come up, right? I oftentimes will assess like what is that parent’s ability to self-report accurately, right? So being able to actually recognize what my part in that
or not be stuck in their own shame or guilt, right, enough to be able to really see clearly in that. And then we start talking about why it’s important to give feedback to one another and the ways that we each as individuals might best receive that feedback, right? People get really specific about don’t do it in the moment.
Please phrase it this way, right? But what we’re really essentially doing is building this kind of blueprint for how do we start to see ourselves more clearly in terms of our role in these patterns that look like a problem, a problem with one child, right? And start to maybe uncover, hey, this is a little bit more about me.
and my anxiety, or this is about my story, right? The story that I’ve created throughout my history with, name it, right? And from there, we can really start to put into practice the supports that that parent actually needs more so than the child. And what we know and what we do really well at Parent Trainers is teaching parents to
set the stage and do something different and create an environment from which the kids can respond differently. The child can react differently. The child can process what is actually happening for them. So it’s really, yeah, the blueprint, the groundwork for all of that.
Robert Trout (20:42.505)
Yes, and let’s be clear for the listener. This is something we’re always going to be upfront about anybody should be a friend about We don’t mean the first time you’re different right? This is you be different long enough and hard enough and Persistent enough that they have to start interacting differently over time with the family So when a family system is struggling This isn’t about a miracle change
This is about understanding all the players involved, understanding the needs, wants, desires, and the struggles of each individual within that, and then someone being present enough to move those pieces and start letting things be different and changing in the direction that hopefully you’ve kind of set the stage for that you want the whole family system to move towards.
Now, this is hard, hard work. I don’t want it to sound simple, because it’s not. But there’s so many elements to dissect to figure out where you need to go, which is why having outside eyes, such as us, or a therapist, or a social worker, or someone that can be like, hey, this is what we’re witnessing. Because when you’re in it, it’s almost impossible to see, because you’re in it.
But outside eyes, this is where the conversation goes, where we had a previous podcast that talked about the supports we build are necessary to be outside of the family, where it’s like putting people into place to give feedback, to scaffold, and to create boundaries or reinforce boundaries within the system. Having a team, such an important aspect of this conversation. But anyway, going back into just the family system element, this is where the parent
I think needs to really recognize like, okay, I need to recognize what I’m doing that’s feeding into what’s happening with everybody else. So there we get into self work, right? And this is so important, especially for the parent that’s listening and it’s like, well, I put my kid in therapy. It’s like, okay, so you did half of the work. The other half is for you.
Robert Trout (23:00.681)
to go do either your therapy or personal growth or coaching or whatever is an appropriate match for you so that you’re changing while they’re changing. I’m gonna say the number one bit of feedback I always get from kids that like, you know, the family’s trying to help them. The number one thing I hear is, well, I did all this work and they didn’t do anything. That’s coming from like the 15 year old kid.
And here’s the irony is very often they’re absolutely right. They were usually forced into some kind of intervention or therapy or something. Which is fine as far as the like, you know, helping them create tools and manage kind of, you know, what do you want in your life or those bigger questions. That’s great. But the family missed the fact that the whole system still holding to this pattern.
that really reinforce the behaviors, actions, beliefs, and processes for that kid. So the system is not supporting change for the individual. So it really is about breaking in, what is my work as the parent that I can do while my kid has an opportunity to do work as well? And then the level above that when we really get into family systems work is, how can we work now together?
Right? And this can be family therapy, this can be camping trips, this can be relationship building activities, you know, going to events together and talking, like having date night with your kid. Such an important, like, element to this of figuring out how to have relationship with them outside of the problems. And that’s another part of the, like, the shatter or shake metaphor is
Very often the kid gets kind of pushed away as they’re considered the problem. The solution is actually to turn that around and bring them in and build that rapport and relationship effect within the whole family system. Thoughts on that?
Mary (25:07.468)
Yeah, I think it’s really important for parents to, know, within this system recognize that if we’re always focusing on an issue, a problem, a bump in the road, then we’re actually missing a lot of opportunity for that child to learn to resource themselves and to actually just show up differently. We’re actually creating a narrative where the child tends to fall into the role.
of having an issue or being what they feel like is a problem or a need to be fixed, right? And so in its very nature, being able to step back as a parent, not treat everything as urgent and learn how to just be in relationship with your child oftentimes can set the groundwork for that child resourcing themselves.
being able to discuss harder things with mom and dad or mom and grandmother or whoever it is, right? Just feeling more comfortable and knowing that they’re allowed to give feedback as well and state their needs and make requests and show up differently.
And a lot of times when I’m working with parents when we start to really implement those shifts and back away from always asking about the next issue, the next thing and it can be as little as
homework and bath time and all of these things, right? When we start to step away from that and just start to communicate as if we’re just wondering how the child is doing, hey, or hey, good to see you, right? When we step into this more relational piece, what we see is a huge shift in terms of.
Mary (26:58.614)
the child’s receptivity to, okay, mom’s here for me. Grandmother’s here for me. know, aunt is here for me. and I can trust that I’m in a relationship with this person that will support me and guide me and is not judging me. and so there’s a lot wrapped up in that when it comes to looking at the family system and
our own personal work not bleeding into the family system. And it’s not always therapy that we recommend, right? It’s like somatic work, it’s social gatherings. A lot of times I have to schedule with parents, like you’ve got to
get out and see your friends. You’ve got to get out and be around people your own age, right? So there are lots of little ways that we look at the impact that just kind of slowly drifting into this state of being as a system has on us.
Robert Trout (28:02.633)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I mean, let’s I guess we’ll move towards final thoughts here for the listener. I would say that I hope what you take from this conversation that’s very, very broad, and I honor that for this topic. Like we’re talking about very broad, I’m going to say conversation pieces where it’s like, okay, pick and choose from this what kind of hit. But the important piece for me that I’d like to leave everybody with is my final.
thought is if we’re talking about the family system, recognize that within the diagnostic of what’s going on for this one individual, the struggle automatically goes to the whole system. Okay? So if your kid is struggling, is creating angst or anxiety for you,
And if that’s happening for you, then you’re maybe primarily focused on them. And then the two other siblings are struggling because they’re not getting the attention because you’re giving it to them. And vice versa. Like there is a trackability here. So the final thought is this, slow down and recognize that when we talk about like the urgency factor, so many families, they just want everything to work.
Very often that stress is what makes you skip over the things that would actually make a difference So it’s slowing yourself down is going to be step one no matter what? Stepping out of the situation and getting a view and then putting in the supports for everyone in the system including yourself Be kind to yourself Be kind to yourself in this assessment
while being totally honest about your role in.
Mary (30:00.0)
Yeah, that’s usually where I start. I say pause, say less, do less and spend all of that time and energy that you would have used on that to do something nice for yourself or to reset your nervous system or to yeah, to treat yourself to, you know, time out of the house or time doing something that you enjoy.
And then I usually follow up with start making these smaller changes to the family dynamic by simply investing in hearing your child talk about the nothing of life, right? All the little things that.
that we miss when we’re so focused and in our survival brain. And through these little shifts, you know, we start to realize, you can start to realize, right, how resourceful your family can actually be. And I think it’s just one of the more like silver lining approaches to beginning the work. And like you said, it’s a very, very broad topic. It’s very complex. And
you know, I invite everyone listening, if you’ve got questions, if you find yourself kind of having these aha moments as we’re speaking to reach out to someone, reach out and ask us questions, engage with our community, right? You’re not alone. And certainly we’ve only hit, you know, a small percentage of what many families struggle with when we’re talking about whole system dynamics, but you’re not alone.
Robert Trout (31:37.983)
So on that note come find us at parentrainers.com join our community and support groups and group coaching and get individual work if that’s what you need and We look forward to seeing you at the next episode or in the community.
