Robert Trout (00:02.83)
Hello and welcome to Parent Problems Today, the podcast that explores different topics that parents are dealing with, with family systems and all the things that come up for raising tweens, teens, and young adults. Today, myself, Robert Trout, and Mary Zahnbrecher from the Parent Trainers Community is here to explore a topic that comes up a lot at various stages of life and development.
But today we’re going to explore enmeshment and really try to just dive into the basics of understanding what that is, where it comes from, and what parents should really think about when we jump into that topic. So Mary, as we begin this conversation, I think I just want to pass it to you because the beginning of understanding enmeshment really is about recognizing why
decisions are made by a parent or grandparent or caregiver in any scenario, there’s usually some basic functions to understanding like, okay, I’m making this decision from a place. What are those places that we make those decisions from?
Mary (01:17.792)
Yeah, you know, I work with a lot of families who a lot of times when we’re actually exploring the history of making decisions or taking the next step or looking at options, what we see is like we’re looking at a difference between making a decision that’s more reactionary, that is based off of my emotional state right now, my kids emotional state right now, my partner’s emotional state right now.
the other children’s emotional state right now and trying to relieve that discomfort, unease, whatever it might be, anxiety, right? And what we look at is how that serves short-term goals of feeling better in this moment versus looking at a response that is more in line with values rather than an emotional state. So sure, I can feel really anxious today about
not wanting to get out of the house, not wanting to see people, not wanting to go to school or go to work, right? But my value is teamwork and community and support. And so when we look at those two things side by side, if I choose something based off of my emotional reaction to what is going on in my head, in my emotional state, I’m gonna choose to alleviate that anxiety and stay home.
because that’s very rewarding and I don’t have to feel anxious if I don’t go out. But whenever I look at, on the other hand, right, that values-based decision of, you I believe that when I go to work and I show up, I’m supporting a community, that I’m fulfilling this idea, this value of hard work that really stands out to me in who I am in my core, right? And so while both of those things can be true at the same time,
I’m moving in a way that serves me, serves the family, serves a value set that actually will help me navigate life in a way that is more in line with who I am and what I need in the long term or what my family needs in the long term, right? And so when we look at enmeshment with families, it’s a lot of times this, I don’t wanna hurt them or…
Mary (03:41.292)
there’s a lot of pain going on here for us, truly a lot of pain going on here for us. And we’re just trying to look at alleviating that pain. And we’re looking here instead of out here, right? And so what we really look at in terms of that enmeshment or that desire to take that pain away or to serve that child in meeting a need or doing something, it’s…
Let me just do it. Let me just make it happen. Let me just make it go away. It’s very immediate rather than what are the long-term things we need to look at and how can we serve that bigger purpose.
Robert Trout (04:21.838)
Absolutely. I want to pause in this conversation for all the parents that are listening because very often a measurement is one of these things where they’re like, I’m not a meshed. So what we often have to do is go into this process, say, well, what is a measurement? And I always take it to that place of like, so many parents get into this mindset that rescuing, rescuing their kid is a measurement. And I have to point out to them that that’s not true.
rescuing is a primal survival strategy where we witness someone struggling and we step in because we have the solution, right? So we are resourced or we are powerful enough in our own mindset to step in and handle or take care of whatever was happening there. And so many parents kind of mix that up where it’s like, well, I rescue sometimes, but you know, I don’t really.
You know, do it all the time for my kid. There’s some justification in the story to that. And rescuing really isn’t a measurement. There is that offset where a measurement when we get into the clinical evaluation of it is very much that your, for example, your child’s success in school and relationships in accomplishing a task or a moting or whatever it might be is tied.
Mary (05:23.99)
Outtakes? Yeah.
Robert Trout (05:49.784)
to the actual emotional experience that you’re having. A meshment is the, if my child fails, I have failed. That’s where we’re crossing the line from, I’m not doing their homework for them and rescuing them from the anxiety they’re having about this report. It’s the, I can’t handle them failing this report. That’s the crossover. So for any family that’s listening to this,
We want to make sure we differentiate that because a measurement is one of those pieces that some parents slide in. Yeah, they started rescuing and then eventually it became a, can’t let my family, my community, my, you know, my significant other, the other children, whoever it is, there becomes an us versus them.
and the dynamic of the relationship becomes tied together. if you’re out there listening to this, please understand that rescuing is a different topic that we talk about when we really get into a family system or dynamic. An enmeshment is that place of recognizing that you have crossed a therapeutic boundary where their life is somehow your responsibility because the outcome
of whatever their struggle is, is now directly tied to your either self-esteem, your ability to feel a sense of control or to feel empowered or powerful or whatever it might be, there’s a brute feeling there. But there is that kind of separation between those two things. So when we’re talking about that enmeshment and we talk about that, we make decisions from a place of values or reaction.
The reaction when it comes to enmeshment is not just to save them. It’s to protect ourselves. Any thoughts on that, Mary? What would you add to that?
Mary (07:47.958)
Yeah, and that’s what I was gonna say. Yeah, it’s a total, I think what happens is there’s this negative connotation, right, behind this idea of like, I’m not enmeshed because I don’t do these things, right? Or I’m not enmeshed because, and I think it’s a totally natural thing for parents, for loved ones, for people who care about others to step in in those ways. The big distinction there is between enmeshment and that is,
my role or the way that I perceive who I am is completely intertwined with how successful or stable or fill in the blank, right, that these other people around me are. And I actually internalize that as my fault, my problem, right, and ultimately who that makes me as a person.
Robert Trout (08:48.59)
Yes. Yeah. So when we talk about value, there’s the place of understanding that if you as a parent are in a healthy, stable position, you have a set of core values for you and your family system that you’re trying to guide everyone through. That value is different than the value of seeking success through the child and through the experience. And this really does show up at any stage of development.
You know, we deal a lot with tweens teens and young adults. I have seen this a lot Manifest for a parent Much later in the development where that young adult left home successfully finished high school went to college and then everything fell apart and That’s where the the value of the parent like I was a good parent. We raised them Well, they’re going off to become successful
And then suddenly there’s this major energetic hit that comes back to the universe of like, you didn’t do the job that you thought you did. But that’s very often not the case. It really has nothing to do with you as parents. Like you, you did set the container and get them through high school and, and, and help them in any ways that hopefully were healthy ways only to get to the place where now they’re in a different life system. And that’s where we start to see the.
I’m to say the taxing issues, the anxiety, the depression, the I’m on my own, the individuation kind of concept that takes over. So when you’re listening to this out there, this isn’t like, you were a mesh your whole life. was a, your self-esteem got hit too along some form of struggle in this timeline. And that’s really it is recognizing that your reaction
wasn’t rescuing them for their sake, it was rescuing them for your sake. So that could be in college, it could be in high school. I mean, there’s so many different events that can happen to someone that brings this up. So, Mary, let me ask you, when you work with families, you know, when we do our coachings and our trainings for families all over the country, the question that comes up for me with the measurement a lot is,
Robert Trout (11:14.51)
What do I start to do as a parent if I start to realize this isn’t all about them? So we start to identify this as a measurement. What’s the first steps there? So what comes up for you when you start seeing this pattern and a family becomes open to recognize?
Mary (11:31.106)
Yeah, I think at a baseline, it’s being able to identify what’s going on for ourselves and really think about what is the story that I have that allows me to feel like this is all on me, right? And to add it, like at its kind of core, look at when I notice something coming up that has me feeling a certain way, right? We kind of identify those triggers.
or those kind of telltale signs that this is when I tend to fall into that loop, identifying that and then making a plan to do something different in that moment. Whether that’s just listening, just hearing that child, just being there with them, right? Or whether it’s empowering that child to do something for themselves. And then as always, you know, we encourage parents to do their own work.
whether that’s therapeutic work or whatever they choose in kind of coming back to why is this my story? So we’re sitting there going, notice, recognize, identify it, and change the pattern. And then go look at why that is your pattern. A lot of times parents are like, yeah, I was in this family system as a child where I just had to kind of manage
between my mom and dad and I felt like I was always that person, right? And that’s like, okay, great. And when we start to think about that, where do you feel it in your body? Or what do you notice is the quality of your thoughts? Let’s identify it. Now, what else can you do, right? It’s about what’s yours versus what is your kids. And a lot of times it’s about when we react from our own place of, gosh, I’m not good enough or I didn’t do my job, right?
We take away really great opportunities for our kids to learn about themselves. So, yeah, kind of where we start.
Robert Trout (13:37.272)
Yes. Yep. And that, yeah, and I agree. It really is about that conversation and kind of picking it apart. And the redefining, right? You’re saying like, find something different to do. Very often that goes into the role definition, like I am the parent. So let’s go and explore that. Because if you grew up in a way where a parent is this, this, and this,
Mary (13:59.553)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (14:04.834)
Very often you’re putting the pressure on yourself of not realizing like, you had to struggle too. And let’s be honest, like rescuing some pretty natural thing, right? That is not something that we want to like pick apart because rescuing is one of those like, okay, there’s a certain level of struggle that you see a tween go through with social dynamics or homework or whatever it might be. And there is an appropriate responsive. okay.
Mary (14:15.621)
yeah.
Robert Trout (14:32.882)
I see you’re reaching your limit and I’m not going to let you crash. There’s that parental instinct and that stepping in. And my hope is always that there’s a little bit of mentorship there where it’s like, I’m not just going to do this for you. We’re also going to pause and breathe and do some self care and create space for the therapeutic conversation of this. And we’re still going to get this assignment done, right? Like the you becomes a we.
Mary (14:35.16)
Okay.
Mary (14:43.906)
Totally.
Right.
Right.
Mary (14:55.192)
Press.
total.
Robert Trout (15:01.334)
and we move through. Now later, high school, college, etc. there’s an individuation that is very important there. Where it’s like, you know, the you is still you and I am not stepping in as a parent anymore. I’m stepping far more into that mentorship of I’m gonna let you struggle and hold a container around you to struggle. I’m not gonna take the struggle away from you. Super important designation shift there. Because eventually we get to that place of
You are an adult and I am an adult and we have an adult to adult relationship forming here, which is very much not about the rescuing and very much about the teaching and giving the resource and direction for them to go try and fail and try and fail again and then try and succeed a little bit and then, you know, keep that pace going in that process. So
Mary (15:50.072)
Totally.
Robert Trout (15:58.348)
The reverse of enmeshment really is that recognition of like, my job is to let you go and your life is not my life and I love you and you’re going to struggle and that’s okay. Right? It’s like that separation language and development is important for both sides of the equation. So within that is the, okay, what is my role? And having you as the parent, when we say do your work, that’s not always therapy.
very often is just developing and like, okay, now that they don’t need me in that way, what can I do with my life that provides meaning and support and direction and a role that is supportive to me in my growth and development? Too often parents feel, in my opinion, that I run into, they feel done. I’m done. There’s nothing left for me to do. But the truth is, is that there’s so much for them to do in personal development.
Mary (16:57.271)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (16:57.558)
And I think that for me is where the line gets crossed sometimes is that if you don’t realize that you’ll fall into the trap where you start rescuing and then your job becomes the success of your child or children or family or whatever that might be. And there needs to be a healthy level of separation.
Mary (17:12.279)
Great.
Mary (17:18.039)
Absolutely, I mean, more often than not, the conversation after we talk about these skills and tools and the next thing to do differently is, okay, so now that some of these things aren’t your job, it’s not your role, who do you wanna be? How do you take these things that you do well and apply them to volunteer work or outside of the home, right?
A lot of times it is about a redefining so that we don’t accidentally fall over that line from, I’m naturally teaching you so that I can let you go into the world successfully into like that slippery slope of like, wait, but this has been my role my whole life, you know, or your whole life. And now that’s all I know how to do. So I’m gonna start, I’m gonna start defining myself as that. Yeah, it’s that looking at.
Robert Trout (17:46.466)
Yes.
Mary (18:13.676)
What else? What else is there? You’re still going to be around to support your child. They’re still going to need you for certain things, right? But yes, how do we trust that we have successfully launched that young adult, right, or are launching that teenager and start redefining who am I? What is my role? Because my role is not just rescuing this kid.
My role is not just thinking about my worth in terms of their success.
Robert Trout (18:53.944)
Yes. So we’ve talked about enmeshment and kind of what it is and what it’s not. We’ve looked at these dynamics. I guess for me, the conversation always turns at this point to what we were just saying about personal development is recognizing that if you are enmeshed and you’re starting to recognize those patterns, how do you get out of it? What is like step one, two, and three for you?
not for your kid, your kid’s struggling. Yes, we’ve identified that something is going on there. They need to do their work and receive mentorship and guidance and kind of have that wraparound support. But you as a parent, what would be step one, two, and three? If we simplified it down to what do I do, what would you say is number one? Let’s see if we match up on
Mary (19:48.621)
Yeah, number one is just recognizing what’s coming up. It’s recognizing, this is that pattern. This is the story in my head that maybe I don’t even hear. It’s just kind of the white noise that plays all the time in the back of my head that says jump in because you’re not enough or you did a bad job. And so now it’s your time to show up and do that same thing. So noticing whatever
Robert Trout (19:51.308)
No.
Mary (20:15.96)
tends to happen in those moments for you as the parent, again, whether it’s the quality of my thoughts or the way I feel in my body, a lump in my throat, right? And recognizing this is a story I’m telling myself, this isn’t actually what’s happening.
Robert Trout (20:16.302)
Thank you.
Robert Trout (20:38.232)
Yep, I agree with that. And then step two for me is always that recognition for the parent to say, OK, your entire job after realizing that you want to make this better is to change your approach to a place of how can I teach them without doing it for them? Step two is
changing the language and the thought of I would normally do this for them because I don’t think they can. You know, there is a loss of confidence there with the measurement and that really drives that reaction. So it’s the I need them and that’s hard. I need them to develop a strategy to handle this without me. So it’s working yourself out of a job.
So step two for me is the, how do I change the thought and the language for how I approach what is happening for myself while teaching and mentoring being the core factor there. That would be step two for me.
Mary (21:51.834)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (21:55.47)
Do you agree with that?
Mary (21:55.583)
100%. Yeah, and a lot of times I’ll see parents go like, I didn’t realize how much I kind of needed them to need me or how much I was really in this thought pattern of if I’m not there for them, then I’m not a good parent or if I’m not just doing it for them and taking this pain away from them or this stuff, then
Robert Trout (22:06.882)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (22:17.72)
Bye.
Mary (22:22.828)
than I have failed. Absolutely, that’s, The pause is kind of what I call it.
Robert Trout (22:29.016)
Yep. that’s, And the redefining, the redefinition of, like you just said, the good parent. Sometimes I’ll even have people like write a checklist. This is what it means to be a good parent. But then we have to do an age check. Well, how old is your child? Where are they developmentally and neurologically in this process? Because sometimes you’re still stuck back when they were, you know, 14.
Mary (22:35.404)
Yes. Right.
Robert Trout (22:56.844)
When they’re 17, 18 now, you have to move up, not them. You have to move the dial forward for your relationship with them and the struggle that you’re having as a family. Step three, what would we close it out with?
Mary (22:56.92)
absolute
Mary (23:09.325)
Right.
Mary (23:14.294)
Yeah, step three is a really big one for me. We spend a lot of time on just developing step three for a lot of different scenarios that happen within family systems. But step three for me is how do you show I’m here with you, I’m in this with you, but I’m not doing it for you? I am becoming more of that mentor or more of that.
Robert Trout (23:30.464)
Okay.
Mary (23:42.612)
I believe that you are capable and maybe there are some pieces missing for you because you’re new to this, right? We forget that kids are very new to some of these experiences, but that we’re in power, like how does the parent then empower the child to kind of sort through what might you do in this situation, right? What are some options you think you have? So I’m here with you, helping you and supporting you. And if you need,
Robert Trout (24:09.038)
I’m sure it will be.
Mary (24:11.68)
if you need me to just kind of give you something, right? Because you’ve never experienced this in your life. I’m here to do that. But I wanna empower you to think through what makes the most sense in your world as a teenager or a young adult in 2024, right? What makes the most sense for you in how you want to accomplish this or figure this out or struggle and chew on this for a little bit, right?
Robert Trout (24:25.09)
Thanks for
Mary (24:41.366)
and be kind of that mirror for the child.
Robert Trout (24:47.202)
Yes. I think the only thing I would add to that is recognizing that in step three, there’s the transition where you are non-reactive. And as the parent, it’s also that recognition in that moment that you might not be the best person to be in the scenario with them. And that’s really hard for someone that stepped into a measurement is that
realization I have to remove myself from this process and build that separation space because at times depending on the subject and the struggle you’re the trigger or you’re not the right mentor for what your kid needs to learn and there’s that resourcing and bringing in the external support and help from the community or church or or family or whatever it might be
Mary (25:32.152)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (25:46.54)
where it’s like, okay, I have to admit that I am powerless here. So I need to find the right scenario to wrap my child in so that they can learn. And I have to admit it’s not me. So that’s an important step to this is realizing the answer is not always, I’m going to become the mentor. It’s like, no, you’re going to become.
Mary (26:10.872)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (26:13.602)
the adult to adult that’s safe to talk to, but the person actually working on this is over there, and that’s okay. So breaking the pattern does not always mean you’re gonna change dramatically. It just means that the whole situation changes and realizing that it doesn’t have to be you, and that that’s okay. So within that dynamic,
Mary (26:20.386)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (26:40.194)
You know, I guess the last thing that comes up for me in this, when a family is kind of working through this is recognizing that the people around you are, also going to have to be.
Robert Trout (26:53.262)
truthful with you You kind of need in my experience people Whether their parents or not when it comes to an enmeshed relationship process You need the external for people to gently come in and say hey, you’re in it Come back out here. So that might be a co-parent or grandparent or a friend or whoever but eliciting support is also usually a part of this the
Mary (26:55.33)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (27:22.658)
Hey, you’re reacting and we’re gonna go over here now and someone take you away from the process that you’re stuck in so that you don’t have to run the full loop of behavior and reaction and process with your child. That might be my last thought on this. What about you? What would be your like, what do we not touch on in this?
Mary (27:47.202)
Yeah, let me search. mean, because honestly with families like, you know, that juxtaposition between this is developmentally appropriate and this is actually sliding into some unhealthy, inappropriate patterns, right? We could spend days on it because there’s a lot going on there. There’s a lot to kind of pick through. And I think part of this is, yeah.
Robert Trout (27:58.829)
Mm-hmm.
Mary (28:16.008)
Yeah, I’ve I’ve branched off to so many different topics when this comes up of yeah, defer, defer, defer, have that community. Your child developmentally at a certain age actually doesn’t want you to be the mentor, right? Like you were saying. And then, learning, yeah, learning how to place yourself in different roles within your own life so that you can step back and allow your child that.
Robert Trout (28:34.168)
Wait.
Mary (28:45.1)
Yeah, I think this topic really strikes me as one that can be really, really complex. And when we look at it, it’s like there’s so much going on behind the scenes for a lot of families when this topic comes up and differentiating what is healthy, what is not healthy. But yeah, I could probably spend days on it. But I think that the great thing about this is like,
despite all this complexity, if you can start to recognize and you can pause and re-shift in your mind and then you can do something different to allow your child the empowerment to figure some things out and do your own work around, isn’t for me, this is for them. It can be that simple, yeah.
Robert Trout (29:36.59)
Absolutely. Well, if you’re a parent listening to this and this has been helpful at all, we invite you to come join us at our community. Please visit parenttrainers.com to find the resources and the things that are available right now for you that might be helpful in the situation you’re working with your tween teen or young adult. We appreciate you listening. Have a wonderful day.
