Robert Trout (00:01.582)
Hello and welcome to Parent Problems Today, the podcast where we explore all of just so many issues and conversations and techniques for working with tweens, teens, and young adults. And today we’re coming to you from Parent Trainers with the idea of talking about intervention. And I want to be clear about this. We’re coming to you because
So many families don’t understand the concept of intervention. And for me personally, and sorry, my name is Robert Trout, your host, and I’m here with Mary Zaunbrecher as well from the Parent Trainers team. And for me personally, as I’ve worked with so many families over my career, what I run into is this idea that intervention is thought of only as the TV show.
You mentioned the word intervention and everyone’s like, so we have to gather all of our family in a room and tell them they’re doing something very bad and they have to stop or, you know, something, you know, they have to go to treatment or something else. And it’s like, actually, intervention covers a wide span of techniques and strategies for supporting anybody that’s going through a mental or behavioral health process.
I say anybody because that’s true any age any any human being any parent any grandparents someone? That’s going through something usually they run into this point that intervention becomes a viable strategy for getting them to recognize the pattern that they’re in and then change that behavior so we’re going to try to Kind of break this down for all the parents who are listening
where intervention is not that big gathering. This is a concept that parents can really use to recognize what’s going on for their loved one and more importantly, create a strategy for change. So using that as a concept, Mary, let me pass this off to you real quick. When intervention comes up for you as a concept, what are the first couple of things that come to mind?
Mary (02:24.816)
Yeah. So I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is just this idea of interrupting a pattern, right? Like an intervention does not have to be some huge crisis moment. And in fact, I think when I hear the word intervention, I actually think of a continuum now. Whereas maybe, you know, in my younger years as a therapist, it did mean specifically
you know, gathering family and, trying to get someone to change their mind. Right. And in that system, an intervention was very all against one. And when I think about an intervention in terms of what we do and what, you know, lots of people don’t know that they can, they can do and seek out is just this idea of how can we interrupt a pattern that maybe we’re all caught up.
in as a system and what is our work within the system as well, right? It’s not one against all of us. We’re a system and it’s also our job to be involved in interrupting this pattern. And so in that very way, I think about the stages of change model and just the idea of how do we move someone who maybe doesn’t see
Robert Trout (03:43.118)
Mm-hmm.
Mary (03:49.028)
what’s happening, right? Sometimes we can’t see ourselves very clearly. We’re caught up in our heads and all of our intentions and thoughts and anxieties and worries. How do we help someone see or come to some insight around an issue or a way of being and interacting, communicating, right, with others and
being in connection with themselves sometimes. And so it’s this idea of how do we create insight for this person without judgment, without pointing the finger, right? How do we help them become aware that I have options? Yeah.
Robert Trout (04:41.614)
Absolutely. I mean, you bring up so much with that. Just the base concept of pattern inter- pattern disruption brings up kind of the stages of looking intervention. So I’m going to talk about that for a second for all the parents that are listening. The first kind of stage of intervention is the person. So in this case, usually the parent looking at the child, the teen, tween, young adult, whatever stage they’re at.
and recognizing they’re stuck in a loop. This is a neurological loop, a behavioral loop, an addiction loop. It doesn’t matter. Loops is the language I really love because everyone can picture the circle of we just end up in the same place over and over again. Like it doesn’t matter how much we yell, what the consequences are, like, et cetera. And consequences just in this conversation very often are the tool of measuring.
how stuck somebody is. Because consequences at their core, they’re intervention strategies, right? It’s like, well, I see you doing something that impacts you or others negatively, and I’m going to impose then this consequence to divert that behavior. Consequences stop working when we’re looking at loops that are really ingrained within a neurological process, an addiction process.
Or to be honest, sometimes a behavioral process where this person has decided to buck society or your authority or whatever it might be. And that sometimes is even tied to mental health with different personality disorders and anti-social behaviors and things like that. But whatever the cause, we’re recognizing that this person is stuck. And when a person is stuck in a loop,
There are two usual, there are outliers, but let’s talk about the usual things to this. Number one, that person usually can’t see it. They’re stuck. They’re just doing the same thing over and over again because that’s normal life. And two, it usually takes an external intervention strategy to break that. Okay? So those two things are usually very true.
Robert Trout (07:06.274)
From that, we move into the next stage where as the external observers, and usually those with some form of authority, and as parents, we have that to look at our child and say, well, we’re trying to teach them or protect them and help them kind of figure out how to manage the life or the stressors or the addiction or whatever it might be. From there, that’s where stage two moves into strategy of intervention.
So we go from assessment and recognizing loops and kind of doing this, I’m going to say judgment call of how stuck are they? And the consequences help test that. That’s stage one. Moving into stage two of, okay, time to start coming up with strategy to disrupt a pattern that is usually, I mean, at the point of this, this pattern is ingrained. I’m going to pause there. Thoughts on that? Like that flow?
Mary (08:05.24)
yeah, yeah, of course. You know, the thing that when we start talking about the strategy to implement, I think there’s even like a 1.5 in between one and two, which is just pausing long enough to create safety in the relationship, in the environment so that person can take in these strategies, right?
And it’s not like, you know, let’s clear our heads and I’ll teach you something, right? That’s not what we’re talking about, but it’s can you feel safe enough with me and in my desire to be with you while we change something together that you’re receptive to this? And oftentimes I think we want to just jump right in, right? As people were just very solution focused, it’s the way our brains work, but to just really work on
What would it be like to practice non-judgment, to listen, to just be with that person and hear them, hear their experience, their perceptions, no matter how outlandish or bogus or victim, you know, blaming they sound. What would it be like to just be with them in their experience of what’s going on for them and help them to recognize that they’re on some level
understood and more importantly accepted for who they are. And in that way, actually neurologically, right, works for people in promoting change because we’re less activated in fight or flight. We’re less defensive, right? And then we can actually start seeing and exploring options. Yeah. So I think that’s my like 1.5 between
you know, actually implementing the strategies. And then once the strategies get rolling, it’s really tailored to how your family works or how the system that you’re living in functions and interrupting patterns, but all through some pretty basic kind of skills, right?
Robert Trout (10:18.316)
Yep. Yeah. So let’s go ahead and foreshadow that stage three of intervention is implementation. And that’s not, we’re not going to get into that today in this conversation because that really is so dependent upon the family system, culture and resources and so much of that. So the conversation that we’re going to focus on then is this middle, the second stage of intervention, which is really looking at strategy. And the reason this is a conversation at all,
is because this really and truly is a spectrum. So, when we’re looking at strategy and the parent is doing the assessment piece of how bad is this, they’re testing consequences moving up and up and up in severity of consequence until they find that point where there is a reaction from the individual.
And I want to make sure every parent that’s listening to this understands. When we move towards a strategy or the need of intervention, you should always, always, always expect a reaction. You cannot intervene or disrupt a pattern.
without causing some level of emotional reaction or chaos or retaliation or something. It’s the scientific law, right? For every action is an equal or sometimes greater reaction in that circumstance. So we’re literally moving towards that understanding. So I need every parent that’s listening to this understand the intervention automatically sets up
the process of the parent preparing for reaction because you’re about to blow their world apart. And let’s just, let’s talk about the spectrum. And I’ll give the first example as we move into this, the simplest interventions I can think of when I think of like the lower end of this always comes to technology. Always. Teens, tweens, young adults, it doesn’t matter.
Robert Trout (12:33.62)
If they’re in a addiction cycle with video games or their phone or their safe social anxiety without, you know, FOMO and all those types of things that come out and we talk about intervention strategies, well, the simplest one that we run into all the time is you can’t have your phone in your room anymore because you’re not sleeping, something like that. OK, so let’s just use that scenario where
You recognize the behavioral loop that this person’s not sleeping. They’re not taking care of themselves. They’re having additional screen time and just a lack of ability to exist without this device attached to them. That’s how most parents really talk about that. So on this lower end of intervention, the maximum approach to that, because you’ve probably tried to consequence for them not listening or et cetera, to the point of reaching that
You can’t self-manage this. That’s the assessment we’ve reached. So as the parent and the authority in this, I have to intervene to change the behavior and the pattern, the process and the access. So in this very low level intervention, we take that phone. And here’s again what I need everyone to hear. The reaction to that should be expected.
Because if it’s reached the point of influence in this person’s behavior or in their psychological process of managing the anxiety or social stress or whatever it is, and you take that away from them, that is a very low-level intervention with very high impact results. Okay? And I talked to so many families about this.
in the sense that they think, well, you know, it’s not like I took their life away from them. Yes, you did. In so many cases, when we get to that behavioral loop, you took their life away from them in this. So, we see kids threaten to commit suicide. We see kids run away from home. We see kids sneak into their parents’ bedroom at night to steal the phone back.
Robert Trout (14:52.226)
We see kids that shut down and refuse to go to school or participate in any family activity. They are launching a counter attack to the new system of intervention that you put into place to try to change the loop. The biggest surprise to me is always how surprised the parents are that it got so out of hand so fast because when we look at intervention strategy, even on the lowest of levels, like you were saying that 1.5,
build relationship and conversation and compensation to that where it’s not just up, you’re done, bloop. Because you have set off a nuclear weapon in your home and it’s that 12 year old girl. like any kid, it doesn’t matter. It’s the 17 year old. It’s the 25 year old that can’t go to class and college because they’d stay at.
in their dorm or in their apartment playing video games all day and they’re failing everything they’re trying to do. Whatever level of this and again even in this scenario I want to be careful I’m not saying your kid’s addicted to that phone I’m saying it’s their life. Those are not the same thing. It can be neurologically some people do actually develop addiction tendencies towards technology.
But it doesn’t have to be that. It can just be that that phone has become an integrated tool for them to exist. So that’s low end. And we expect reactions. Intervention always creates reactions. So low end is there. Mary, what would you, if we move that dial somewhere towards middle, what do you think of when we look at those type of strategies that families are considering?
Mary (16:26.588)
Thanks.
Mary (16:42.126)
Yeah, either something like school refusal, you know, over a long period of time or just kind of playing hooky, right? Kids who maybe are disruptive to the whole family system in a really aggressive way. And, you know, we usually start to see patterns around that to where parents actually feel like they’ve got to lock the other siblings in a room.
protect themselves, call help, right? Yeah, so something to that effect, right? Where it’s actually reaching a little further out than just the kid isolating in their room. It’s actually affecting more of their daily life and the people around
Robert Trout (17:31.714)
Yep. And what about intervention strategies you see when it’s reached that point?
Mary (17:38.128)
Yeah, a lot of times, you know, parents talk about feeling like they just have to remove themselves and other kids. And while I do think that that’s absolutely appropriate, I think one of the intervention strategies that I tend to have parents look at more flexibly is what are the conversations we’re having when that child is not activated?
to set us up for what’s happening in that moment. Because oftentimes when kids are reacting or pushing or getting aggressive or just kind of getting annoying, right? They’re sitting there trying to annoy their siblings. There is actually, that is a behavior that’s asking for connection, right? And paradoxically, at some point when we’re teaching boundaries and safety, we’ve got to teach that.
we actually have to remove ourselves if you are gonna be unsafe towards us, right? So thinking more flexibly about what’s that line that we draw and what’s the discussion that we have and how do we open up that conversation around what’s expected and why, and being able to kind of feel out, right, what actually works in the moment because what we can plan for, right,
doesn’t always work in the moment because we don’t know what we don’t know when we are escalated through the roof or, you know, mildly escalated. What that difference looks like in terms of our ability. Yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
Robert Trout (19:20.888)
Well, I agree. And I know that there are parents listening to this episode right now going, wait a minute, the middle of this spectrum is possible violence and fear of like damage and like what? So I want to address that for a moment. Yes, that’s the middle of the spectrum of intervention and strategy because that family
is still trying to live with that person. Because, you know, and we’ll come back to this whole spectrum. We’ll talk about it all in a minute, but let’s go ahead and close this out. The far end, okay, so the end of the spectrum when we look at intervention and strategy usually develops into this person can’t live here anymore. And that can mean a lot of different things. From the lower level of that to like individuals going to treatment.
programs or recovery centers or whatever it might be, all the way to if they’re not there, but they are, I’m going to say, hopefully, temporarily separated from the family in such that an intervention sometimes is, we’re offering you help and if you refuse that help, you can’t live here anymore. Right? So that individual, usually young adults at that point, are
Okay, you’re on your own. Our resources are not your resources anymore. And you’ve got to that point that we have to let you go figure it out. And I want everyone to hear from that conversation that that’s not a negative. We’re talking about intervention strategy here. And sometimes these individuals get to a point behaviorally or an addiction cycle or something where they need to, you know, to take the quote, hit rock bottom, or
Figure out that, you know, what is yours is not theirs, so they can’t just take it from you or whatever it might be. And creating that separation is sometimes an immensely powerful intervention because suddenly they find themselves outside of the resources and the family system that they’re used to. And that is a pattern disruption. Now they have to figure out where they’re sleeping, what they’re going to eat.
Robert Trout (21:46.474)
you know, et cetera, whatever that might be, we’re really looking at the spectrum of going all the way from, I’m going to take your phone away to you can’t live here anymore. And there’s so many reasons for this. When we look at the mental health and behavioral health kind of spectrum of need that we can’t, we don’t have time to get into that. But just looking at the concept of intervention very often, like I said, in the beginning of this episode, that’s what people think of because that’s the TV show.
of like, all right, your whole family’s gathered, you’re not doing okay, like you have to go to treatment. And very often people miss that other half, where it’s like, if you don’t, you can’t live here. Sometimes that wasn’t shown so clearly in the TV shows that everyone saw, but that’s the end of the spectrum of like, we’re trying to work with you and support you to, we aren’t capable of doing it. And God, what…
What a hard moment to reach. But at that end of the spectrum of intervention, it’s sometimes the most powerful for the family to recognize that they’re not the ones. They’re not the ones that are going to create the change necessary for this person to get better or to change their behavior or to create strategies to be able to live on their own or whatever the goals are. They have to admit that’s not us.
We’re not capable of being that for them. And here’s something I’m going to pause for for every family listening.
That’s okay.
Robert Trout (23:26.156)
It’s okay to not be the one or the family or the group capable of supporting this person. The goal is to help them figure out how to go find the people who can support them and help them and develop and try to move them through whatever the process that they’re in. Intervention is sometimes not just for the person, but for the family.
The family, the parents have to be the ones to be intervened on because they’ve been a part of the loop. Everyone’s just playing their own loop and they’re all interacting in such a way that it’s ultimately detrimental to the family system because it’s not sustainable forever. Maybe for a while, but definitely not forever. So, take your phone.
take space and be safe and create those moments all the way to you can’t live here anymore. So there’s our spectrum. Mary, when we look at the whole and the entirety of that, what are the core messages you would hope parents would get when they’re thinking about intervention as a concept using the spectrum?
Mary (24:45.562)
Yeah. I think you said it wonderfully. It’s not just about that person getting help, but the whole system kind of resetting and coming back to a baseline. So yeah, it makes sense that an intervention matches, right? What the need is in that moment. It’s not always sending your kid away. It’s not always you’ve got to go, you know, to a program.
It’s, how much space do we need between us to manage these things more effectively? And sometimes space is like, hey, we’re gonna save that for family therapy, right? It’s too much for us to do alone. And sometimes space is, hey, just a reminder about that boundary I have, and it seems like you’re getting aggressive. I’m gonna need to walk away unless we can do this differently.
And sometimes space is really, really, really hard. it’s, you’ve got, you can’t live here because we’re not the support you need.
Robert Trout (25:53.656)
Yep. Yep. And on that mid-range, right, of the spectrum, the answer is not always space. Let’s be clear about that. We’re just kind of throwing things around here. So for me, when people are on that middle stage of intervention strategy and support, the support is the most important thing where the family has to recognize, like, OK, we’re going to intervene on the behaviors and the things that are happening, and we can’t do that alone.
Right? So there’s that recognition and that assessment of what’s going to be necessary here. So bringing in outside resources for the parents and their support, for the children and their support. I mean, sometimes it’s having mentors or clubs that that kid goes away to or et cetera, but it’s involving other people so that the family’s not just the small core group. It’s the whole community interacting to try to help
the pattern break and move things along. And sometimes that’s as simple as changing the daily routine. I’ve even had families move so the kid can go to a different school or whatever the scenario kind of looks for. But when they moved, it was an intervention. They didn’t tell the kid that, but it was a you can’t be the same if we don’t live here. And it worked right. And to varying degrees, families figure that out.
of how to change the structure of their life on that mid-range so that life dictates change. Those are some of the easiest strategies that parents kind of come to, but that middle range is sometimes very complicated because, mean, even as I say this, I want to admit, I do know that moving is not that easy. Right?
But that family had the opportunity to, when they did their assessment, and said, this would be good for us and for them. And it worked, and it helped. So it’s about breaking down what options actually exist and recognizing what’s in your control and power and dynamic to be able to move forward.
Mary (28:08.602)
Yeah, something else that comes to mind is just the quality of connection, right? That we’re seeking to enhance the quality of connection. And like you said, sometimes that’s, hey, I’m not great at helping you with schoolwork. So we bring in a tutor. And sometimes that’s, hey, I would love if you played a sport or were in some club so that you are connected outside of just me and
and co-parent or whoever it is, right? And sometimes it’s, we make a time every week that we just sit down and play a game and don’t talk about anything heavy, right? And so through all of this thinking in terms of like growth oriented intervention, right? It’s not necessarily that we’re always, always, always on it. It’s that we’re enhancing the quality of connection and how we’re…
stepping into and stepping back from that very mindfully.
Robert Trout (29:10.434)
Yep, absolutely.
Robert Trout (29:15.5)
Well, I guess as we kind of head towards the end of this conversation, I would like to close out by talking about the question that comes up for a lot of parents of how do we know we need an intervention? So my answer is very simple. If you’re frustrated because the same thing keeps happening over and over and over and over and over again, it’s time for an intervention.
Step one is that assessment, figuring out like, I see a pattern, right? Stage one is recognizing that there’s a pattern, the over and over and over. So if you find yourself there, now do the assessment of like, okay, well, I recognize something’s happening over and over and over again, and it’s negatively impacting our family or our child or whatever it might be. All right, it’s time.
for an intervention. So we move towards stage two of developing strategy of what that would look like. And just as a closing thought to that, a reminder, expect the reaction. Don’t expect this to be simple. Interventions are never simple, never. I’ve never seen one that’s worked out perfectly. It’s about adapting and moving things along, but that pattern disruption is the point. And that will always create
some kind of chaos and reaction. So just expect it and say, okay, my job is to expect that and to handle it well. What about you, Mary? Thoughts on that?
Mary (30:54.428)
Yeah, I mean, the thing that comes to mind is we will always choose as humans, as animals, we will always choose the known hell over the unknown heaven. Right? And so, yeah, we cling tightly to what we know for survival reasons. And
Being able to set the stage for that person, hearing that you care and that you’re ready to do the work alongside them, I think goes a really long way. And that’s part of the thing I love about this work, Rob, is that we get to work with so many parents and you know, their kids go, wait, what? You’re gonna do something different? They wanna hear from me, right? And yeah, just acknowledging that it’s a…
It’s a system and it’s a process. And if you take the time to think about just how kind of ingrained you are in those patterns and some parents say, I don’t even know what normal looks like, right? I didn’t know it could be this way. Yeah, if you’re feeling like you even have questions, that’s when to start asking around for support or asking around.
And as always, I mean, we’ve got tons of resources and community support. And I think sometimes that’s the best way is just to talk about what’s going on for you and see what’s worked for others and what professionals know.
Robert Trout (32:35.138)
Yep. Especially if you’re out there right now and you’re like, I see the loop, but I have no idea what to do. Seek support. Find us at parenttrainers.com and join the community and ask your questions and get other parents and professionals like us working with you and do some coaching and develop your strategy, whatever it might be, or something else. Go find a parenting group that’s local to you that you can ask those parents what they’ve tried.
Just recognize that one person’s solution is never going to be everybody’s solution, as a caveat. Intervention is not cookie cutter. Yeah, options not answers. There you go. There’s the catchphrase. So as we move through this.
Mary (33:17.976)
Options don’t answer, right? That’s what we always say. Options not answer.
Robert Trout (33:28.734)
as a parent, find support to spark creativity because intervention is very often about creativity and figuring out what will work for you and your kid. It’s not about a cookie cutter, everybody does this and it makes it better. It’s what’s going to work for you to create interruption, so create intervention and manage the results of that.
That’s the kind of flow when we start to engage intervention as that stage three is actually doing it and then flowing with the process that unfolds because you want change. They don’t necessarily want anything to change. But just because you create change doesn’t mean the change is going to look like what you imagined in your head. That’s also really important.
Intervention is not about making it go from this hell to this heaven. Intervention is we’re in hell and we got to make something move because we can’t start climbing until we can see a path or make the mountain crumble. Right. So intervention is about movement and motion so that you can create change. It’s not about creating a specific change. It never
I almost never works out exactly how people thought it would when an intervention strategy is put into place.
Well, thank you all for listening. We hope this has been helpful. Find us at parenttrainers.com to come join our community, watch our videos and trainings and master classes, and ask other parents for support. We look forward to seeing you there.
