Robert Trout (00:01.191)
Hello and welcome to the Parent Problems Today podcast. Today you’re with myself, Robert Trout and Paul Arradondo from the Parent Trainers team. And today’s topic is another conversation piece that families step into around looking at, I’m gonna say conflict at its root. And the reason I say that with a little hesitancy is just because conflict is a really big
subject in the world of behavior and mental health and looking at the prospect that even with someone struggling with something, humans have to learn how to process through conflict. They have to look at team building processes that build relationship which involves a level of conflict and resolution. So today’s topic is going to be looking at a few different angles of this subject.
And Paul, as we get started with this, why don’t we just start with outlining kind of the two different sides to it, as we were kind of doing before we even started recording. So why don’t you talk about the one side of it, and then I’ll start on the other side.
Paul (01:15.417)
Sir, so I think I’ll just name them. When we talk about the range of conflict as a spectrum, on one end is a complete avoidance, and on the other end, we tend to refer to as aggression. And there’s obviously varying degrees and presentations of such.
Talking about avoidance, we can use words like placation or fawning. We can talk about how parents don’t want to quote unquote trigger their children. They don’t want to distress their children. And ultimately that degree of avoidance, it doesn’t support trust and safety. When we’re talking about conflict as a topic, it’s actually healthy. And we’re going to touch on what does healthy conflict look like today.
For the sake of, as you just said Rob, kids and humans, we need to learn how to resolve. And you in the home space are the model of that communication style. So whatever is happening in your home, your kids are learning from you. And I mean, gosh, I could say from my own personal experience, my home conflict style growing up wasn’t ideal.
And, you know, as I’ve grown up, I’ve thankfully been exposed to a lot of different communication styles and techniques and moving away from passivity and aggression into more assertive communication, which we’ll talk about shortly. But the recognition that oftentimes with avoidance comes bigger behaviors from the children because they don’t know where the boundary is. They don’t know where the edge is around behavior. And oftentimes,
when the avoidance happens on the parent’s side. And I’m sure, Rob, you’ve talked to many families, the pendulum swings to aggression, and then we swing back to avoidance. So being able to find that middle ground is so vital for your kids, not only in understanding what it means to be safe in the home, but also understand what the boundaries are, the expectations are, how you’re going to…
Paul (03:28.686)
teach them your values and ethics. You when we’re talking about conflict, it isn’t about like knock down, drag out control. That’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about bringing your children to the table so that they can develop language around what is appropriate, what is healthy, what is in balance and alignment with them taking, you know, developmental next steps in their lives. So I’ll toss it back to you, Rob. What do you want to add to that?
Robert Trout (03:56.815)
Yeah. So, I mean, switching from conflict avoidance to the other side, really looking at the aggressive, right? And this can be passive aggressive or just aggressive behaviors that are very conflict oriented. This is in the simplest terms where the parent typically shows up in the conversation or event and what the parent wants is to win. They are just dead set that this time this situation is going to go different.
I’m going to feel heard and feel a sense of control in whatever the situation is, usually centered on behaviors or a change in opinion or process with the kid. And in its simplest form, this is where like we’re getting into a fight now. This is really going to be parent versus child. again, child being any age. I’ve seen this on little kids.
where little kids recognize, uh-oh, mom’s dug in, it’s time, and they’re learning combat. In every true sense of the word, even, how to win in this situation. Now, the part to really hold onto there is that the child has a lot of strategies to win. This isn’t just a logical.
Paul (05:16.422)
Uh-huh.
Robert Trout (05:21.355)
argument, a scientific facts-based argument. That’s not what we’re talking about here. What we’re talking about at this point is the parent wants to win, to be heard, to be understood, and to be listened to, typically. Not always. There’s a few outlying things there as well. And this is where the child just goes full nuclear. And you’ll see the tantrum on the floor of the supermarket.
Throwing things screaming, you know at the younger ages But then when you get into our range typically of tweens teens and young adults This is where you see the like the avoidance game where it’s like I’m just gonna stop talking completely to you because you know I can you know and they can step into something around that all the way to physical aggression putting holes in the walls and like and using physical intimidation as a part of it
And so many other examples to it, but this is not a rational fight. This is the parent wanting to be right and the child just wanting this to stop. They’re wanting this to end in a favorable way where they feel like they made you understand that you can’t win this in, you know, any other meaningful way. So a lot of different directions this can go. When you come in hot, they can get hotter.
Paul (06:41.41)
Uh-huh.
Robert Trout (06:41.927)
is really kind of the end of that. we don’t, I mean, I don’t think that’s where we’re going to take this conversation. But I’d like every parent listening to this understand that you can show up wanting to win as much as you want. How the fight flows is not up to you. And that’s where we see significant events happen. Police are called, children are hospitalized for their own actions, behaviors, and words.
things like that where it’s like, OK, hold on. You maybe did press the big red button. And that’s what this is as we swing that pendulum to that side of things. So yeah, we have this aggressive incoming. And then we have the avoidance, which is really tied into what you were saying where now we have to look if it’s a pendulum, where is the middle ground?
So as we go through that, Paul, what would you kind of speak to in that middle ground as we start that part of the conversation?
Paul (07:44.33)
Well, if we’re stepping into the middle ground, what we’re really talking about is assertive communication. And it actually comes from your presentation, your nonverbals, your tone, your volume, how fast you’re talking or slow you’re talking, posturing or presenting as relaxed, where you’re at in the space, sitting down ideally, with them also sitting in a relaxed position. That would be,
a good set and setting for a conversation that you know is going to stir conflict. Because what we’re talking about here is conflict is predictable. Conflict is something that we expect. And so walking in with the expectation of their irritability, of their anger, of their frustration, of their impatience, of their desire to avoid or maybe snap at you to make the conversation stop. Whatever version of your child that is, you know. You know.
You’ve seen it, you’ve lived it, you’ve been trying to manage it. And so expect it is what we’re talking about because in the expectation of it, in the predictability of it, ideally we walk in prepared to not be reactive. That allows us to not move into that passivity or that aggressive space. So a lot of what we’re talking about when we’re finding that middle ground is first finding that middle ground within yourself to then be able to show up.
with them and keep them grounded because again, it’s predictable that they’re going to be elevated in some way, or form. As we talk about in many of these podcasts and in our trainings, you are the mature nervous system and brain. Their brain is still developing. They don’t have the capacity like you do as an adult to be in a space where you can take care of yourself in conflict, you know, and
Robert Trout (09:34.918)
Yes.
Paul (09:35.98)
Some parents actually struggle with this just in general. So, you know, it is that thing about doing your personal work to be able to show up and be, again, that example, that model, that way of engaging that shows them that conflict actually can be resolved. We can move into mutual understanding, even if it’s not agreement. It’s a mutual understanding like, yeah, okay, I can see your point. And I hear that you’re hearing me as well. And this is how we’re moving forward.
Robert Trout (09:38.223)
Yes.
Robert Trout (10:06.491)
Yep. And speaking to the training element of this, let’s be very clear. These are two different styles. You know, the being aggressively, you know, centered, like trying to go after the win and to be heard and understood. Oftentimes that comes from wounding growing up where you didn’t feel that way. So now it’s your turn to be, you know, heard and respected and seen just like your parents were to you. And, you know, that dynamic. So it’s unpacking a part of that.
Paul (10:26.648)
Right.
Robert Trout (10:36.079)
all the way to the other side where, you know, being conflict avoidant, you know, both of these are personality styles that get developed by how we were raised and kind of the system of our family and our culture and whatever it might be kind of led us into. But now as a parent, you sometimes have to understand that you have to go against that, that internal part of yourself in order to develop a new skill and way.
of presenting and that’s this middle ground we’re talking about is, is recognizing that the way that you think you want to handle this isn’t going to solve for the situation that you’re in with your child. To solve for that, you have to go against that grain and kind of step into the middle and say, okay, I need to maybe learn this assertive communication style and practice it and get to that point of recognizing that I’m going to make myself uncomfortable.
Paul (11:06.03)
Uh-huh.
Robert Trout (11:34.587)
to step into this with my child for their education and learning, to not be aggressive, but to step into that middle ground of saying, okay, I know there’s gonna be conflict, I’m going to accept that. And there’s different pieces to that, such as stepping into the middle and saying, I’m gonna bring up this conflict knowing that it won’t be solved in one session of us going into this. Very often it’s micro lessons of stepping in.
Paul (12:00.046)
you
Robert Trout (12:01.595)
doing it differently, assertive communication, dropping a little hint, planting the seed, whatever metaphor you want to use, and then stepping out and then stepping back in the next day and then the next day or waiting three days and then doing it again. But the point is, is recognizing that you’re teaching as you do this, but it’s the middle ground isn’t about. It’s going to get solved right now in this moment, which.
Paul (12:18.751)
huh.
percent.
Robert Trout (12:28.131)
Ironically, it’s kind of both ends of this big spectrum we’re talking about because really aggressive style, they want closure now. They want this to be over. They want this behavior to never happen again, like whatever. And then even on the other side, it’s the same thing where it’s like, well, maybe it’ll just get better if we just let them try to learn on their own about this. But then there’s a lack of consequence, right? There is no learning in that because no one’s participating. So in that middle ground is really where we’re trying to get to.
Paul (12:51.746)
Right. Yeah.
Robert Trout (12:58.193)
where healthy conflict is the conflict where the parent says, I’m going to be uncomfortable. This is probably going to suck a little bit, but I’m going to teach. I’m going to stay grounded and I’m going to step into this. And yeah, it’s going to suck a little bit as we go through it. That’s a part of the education process for both them and you. Because if you can do this either way, coming from either side towards the middle, it’s going to be hard to do it differently than what you maybe feel that internal
drive is, or your safe spot on that spectrum. Thoughts on that?
Paul (13:32.296)
Yeah, think, yeah, certainly. I think there’s value in briefly discussing different types of conversations that happen between people. There’s three different types. There’s an emotional conversation where somebody is just trying to vent.
and they are just expressing emotions. There’s a pragmatic conversation where there is solution oriented conversation about like how to problem solve or what a healthy next step looks like or strategizing outcomes. And then there’s a third conversation, which is a social conversation, creating the space to have an understanding of how do we engage each other in a healthy way? What is our relationship defined as? How do we move together and
developing our interpersonal communication, our family culture, our community. So oftentimes parents want to have a pragmatic conversation while the kids having an emotional conversation. And we end up missing the boat as caregivers because we’re trying to get them to understand something and they’re trying to express an emotion. And that is often the case where
things just feel disconnected and parents often are like, I need to repeat myself 100 times. They’re not listening to me. And the truth is, is nobody’s listening. And so that is again, what Rob was saying about slowing down and understanding it’s not gonna happen in the first conversation or just at the very least understanding what conversation am I in? And oftentimes the parents responsibility is to adapt
Robert Trout (14:56.613)
Yeah. Both directions.
Paul (15:15.032)
to their child rather than trying to pull their child into the conversation that they want to have. And that’s where the patience comes in. That’s where we talk about this idea of planting seeds and taking a step back and giving it a day or giving it a couple hours at the very least. Being in a conversation with them and validating wherever they’re at. If they’re already in solution oriented thinking, great. Engage them, talk about goals, talk about next steps, talk about solutions. If they’re in that
emotional space, validate them, reflect back what you’re hearing from them. If they’re in that social space, which is what we’re really touching on here, which is how do you operate as a family? Great. Still validate them and speak about what their experience is and whether they believe it’s fair or not, because that’s always the main kind of core of things, especially for teens, like this idea of fair and just and reciprocation within relationship. Validate it.
And also, here’s the assertive part, hold a healthy boundary. Be clear with them about what it is that you are asserting as a family. Here are our values. Here’s why this is what I’m expecting of you. Here’s why I think this is healthy for you to have this bedtime, to put your technology away, to make sure that you’re eating a breakfast before you leave for school, to prioritize homework. Why are you?
making these boundaries and expectations of them to not have a phone at the table when you eat dinner. Be able to answer the question of why. Walk in with a conversation, into the conversation with this, again, predictable understanding what questions are they going to ask? Where’s the disconnect? And sometimes that part of that assertive communication is about you being curious. Tell me where you’re at with this.
Robert Trout (17:01.447)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (17:11.746)
Why is this hard? What is going on for you? How come you don’t agree? Being able to sit in that level of discomfort with your child is actually bringing them to a mature conversation where they feel you trying to understand. And that’s often where, again, we move into that control piece where, you know, if you’re just trying to make them understand and you’re not listening, they feel like they’re
Robert Trout (17:16.582)
Yes.
Paul (17:39.842)
Their opinion is minimized. They feel like you’re controlling, you’re trying to manage them, you’re overbearing. And that’s often when, again, we see the swing of the pendulum for them. They either withdraw completely or they get extremely agitated and it shows up in different ways. So all that to be said, be aware of what conversation you’re in, okay? Because it’s all manageable if you can…
Be attentive and be curious about where they’re at on whatever the topic is. And again, as you said, Rob, and we’re going to be broken records about, it’s going to take a little bit of time. You know, it might take a lot of time, but you know, it’s worth it because yeah, because it, mean, this is what we’re talking about is your relationship with your child, your young adult. You’re setting the stage for your relationship with your adult child right now.
Robert Trout (18:19.461)
Yep, I was gonna say a little bit for a while.
Robert Trout (18:37.807)
Yeah. And as we look at healthy conflict, I want to be clear with parents out there that we do understand that it’s not a simple one and done. And we’re saying that in two different ways, but sometimes parents get lost listening to a professional kind of outline some of this, like what you just said. I’ll use an example where parents will say, I’ve told him a thousand times the answer to the question of why he can’t have his phone at the table.
Paul (18:48.79)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (19:05.063)
It’s like, yeah, great. I’m glad you had that conversation. So you’re moving on to level two. And level two is, I mean, there’s so many examples, but my favorite one is the like, they say, well, why can’t I my phone? And then you just look at them and say, I’d like you to tell me what you think I’m about to say. Now we’re leveling up. And again, that’s like skill-based of like language techniques and moving. And notice that there’s no tone to that. It’s just, I’d like you to tell me.
Paul (19:27.093)
huh.
Robert Trout (19:34.243)
what you think my answer to that would be. Like, here we go. We’re moving the conversation where now they answer for you and they know the answer. They know the mom speech, the dad speech about this. They absolutely know. Now, if they’re really locked in, if they’re triggered, you’re going to hear things like the, I don’t know what you’re going to say. You know, but they do. They absolutely know.
Paul (19:55.822)
Thank
Robert Trout (19:59.067)
So again, we step into assessment at a piece of this is like, are you trying to win a battle when they’re already gone? They’re in what we call the red zone. They’re in the red zone. Like all of this is pointless. It’s just an energy suck at this point. So it’s like, okay, so your job isn’t to win the argument. Your job is to regulate them and to help them come down and reground, et cetera, which gets into the…
self-care, emotional rebalancing, all the different things that happen there where it’s like, great, let’s have this conversation after we eat because I can tell you haven’t had anything, you’re hangry or whatever, like assess, stop and assess. my God. Like the middle ground of this, of like conflict, being healthy is still dependent upon having a foundation to actually have a conversation, right? Sleep, water, food, like for you and them, by the way.
Paul (20:50.01)
Right. Okay.
Robert Trout (20:51.143)
So, there’s that middle ground includes the assessment of saying is the situation appropriate to have a middle ground process? Healthy conflict can only happen when both sides are equalized. When you are grounded, when you are in a place that is neutral with each other because if you’re showing up after one fight to have this fight, bad timing.
Timing is a part of that assessment. When is the appropriate time to teach as we look at this? And that’s the breakdown. So, conflict happens when again, you as the functional adult with the brain and the capacity to understand this, can look at the full picture and say, we have all the pieces necessary to make progress here.
If you’re not doing that assessment piece, then it’s not appropriate. You’re not ready for middle ground. You have to do the assessment before you build the application of this process. So healthy conflict in the end is putting many of the pieces together to have the foundation, the skill, and the ability on both sides.
Paul (21:50.542)
you
Robert Trout (22:12.397)
Or sometimes all sides, because this might be you and your co-parent trying to come in on one child. So now they’re teamed up on automatically. But if you’re trying to do everything together, there’s a delicacy to that when it comes to healthy conflict. How you sit, what room, inside or outside, know, before or after you eat. Like, you know, what was their day like today in school? Have you taken the time to really, you know, get to know their experience of
Today even not the big picture, but just right now. Where are they at before you try? To organize the situation where healthy conflict can become possible and I guess my maybe even my final point to this is that healthy conflict happens Because you are aware that the conflict will be present and you are prepared For that conflict you have accepted it will be a part of what’s about to happen
That is the ultimate key piece to this is that it doesn’t catch you off guard. You’re not showing up with the enjoyment of winning the battle that’s about to be. And you accept that this is going to be uncomfortable for them and you. If you don’t have those two pieces on the other side to this, then you’re showing up a little misled because
Paul (23:36.782)
Thanks.
Robert Trout (23:40.663)
If you’re not uncomfortable too, I don’t want to guarantee things, but like I’ve definitely seen a lot of kids in my life who have realized that you’re not uncomfortable, but they are and it’s about equalizing. So, they go to the level to try to bring you to uncomfortable with them. So, you have to be equalized in the conversation.
in the conflict for that really healthy outcome of conversation and learning where it’s like, yeah, this sucks. I don’t like having this conversation either. And I’d love for us to figure out a way to do this differently in life so that we don’t have to have this conversation again. you agree with that? I agree with that too. Let’s make changes so that this isn’t necessary anymore.
And you will have to do that for each individual style of conflict. Each argument or behavior thing or process as a family is not a one and done. But if you can build a healthy process where you’re like, this works for us to have this style of connection, process, conflict and resolution.
You can then do that for each one of the things that come up as they grow and develop and, you know, come up with new ideas of how to, you know, frustrate you. But therein lies, I think, the foundation, the assessment, and then that key piece of saying, I’m going to show up knowing the conflict is coming and being honest about the fact that I don’t like this either. And I’m trying to work with you so that we don’t have to do this anymore. It’s really about a team effort, working
together, not with force and not with like a timid like, it okay that we change this? It’s very much a we’re gonna change this and I’m asking for your help, ideas, support and anything else that you’d really like to share because you matter too in this process. Healthy middle ground.
Paul (25:47.229)
Yeah, I think the last thing I’d like to say is that we’re all human and we’re bound to be reactive from time to time, even though we may set the intention to hone in on the predictability of their irritability and their reactivity. And we get impatient and we struggle and we fly off the handle or we move into the passivity again, swing the pendulum to one side or the other.
Robert Trout (25:47.676)
Thanks.
Paul (26:14.506)
What I want to encourage is this understanding that there’s always space and availability to circle back. There’s always space and availability to circle back. It’s not too late. If it turns into something getting swept under the rug, there we are back in avoidance. If it turns into a bigger argument where again, it becomes a control issue.
We’re moving away from the intent of what we’re trying to support you with here. So creating that understanding for yourself or trying to maintain it as best as possible, it’s challenging. I mean, I’m not gonna pull up some, I don’t know, pretty picture of everything sunshine and roses when you become assertive.
It’s not, it’s not going to be easy. Your child’s going to be suspicious. You’re going to get the side eye. You’re going to be doing something different. So they’re going to maybe surprise you with some behavior. Take care of yourself in the process. And again, you can always circle back to do repair work to say, wow, that didn’t work. Can we talk about what was going on there? Because just being able to have that moment with your child, it reinforces that they matter to you.
that it’s important that you have healthy relationships, that you have healthy communication. And that’s really the heart of what we’re talking about here is healthy communication. Creating the space for conflict, creating the space for understanding that being a human is messy. Family is messy. It doesn’t mean that it’s not workable.
Robert Trout (27:53.468)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (27:58.865)
Yes, absolutely. So as always, if you’ve listened to this episode and you’re like, I’d love to learn how to do this because there is a level of skill and we have to unlearn parts of how we learned to be the parents that we are, the humans that we are, the triggers, the reactivity, the processes. You have to unlearn how to do that, which means you need to learn. So come find us at parenttrainers.com.
Take one of our intensive trainings and start developing the skill and ability to actually follow through with some of these plans. Get some coaching about your specific situation and the processes that are happening for your tween, teen, or young adult. And let’s get through it. That’s really it. Dedicate yourself to learning to be different. So as always, we look forward to seeing you there and in the community. And have a great day.
