Robert Trout (00:01.368)
Hello and welcome to the Parent Problems Today podcast. We are coming today with a topic of, I guess, great renown when we start looking at like therapy and parent coaching and processes for families between teens and young adults. And it’s really going to tie to this misconception that parents have. And the misconception is my kid’s going to listen to me.
So today’s topic of discussion with myself, Robert Trout and Paula Arredondo from the Parent Trainers Team is Pushback is Predictable. And we’re going to try to break down today in this conversation the basic or I guess fundamental thoughts and ideas around intervention and looking at how kids, know, teens, tweens, young adults respond to the parents
Changing the game putting in new boundaries new rules new I guess family structures things like that so when we say pushback is predictable I think Paul what we should do is kind of outline like okay a parent recognizes that there is a problem Now this is a general conversation. So the problem could be They’re not getting out of bed
because they don’t want to go to school. The problem could be that they graduated high school and then did nothing after graduation and they live in your basement and play video games all day. We hear that conversation so many times. The problem could be that they are not listening to any of the family rules, right? They’re starting to be in the individuation of teenage dynamics where they’re trying to establish themselves as separate from you.
Paul (01:43.316)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (01:57.984)
And that means your rules don’t matter. They can stay out as late as they want. They can drink if they want to. can whatever it might be. Okay. So many scenarios play out for what the problem might be. But no matter what, when the parent identifies the problem, what typically happens is either a reaction or an intervention. Reaction.
by definition is a unthought out plan trying to retaliate against the behavior usually by a sense of force but not always. Okay, so if you’re a parent listening to this, the reaction is something that you just pulled out of your butt and threw at the problem in a moment of anger and frustration or fear is a big part of it as parents kind of fall into that.
We’re always going to advocate that you don’t do that. Reactions are not really useful when it comes to working with someone to develop strong independence and behavior patterns that are healthy for a family system, things like that. So what we do advocate for is the alternative, which is intervention. And by definition, an intervention is a thought out plan with steps.
that lead from the current circumstance to a circumstance that you want a change in behavior, a change in motivation, a change in direction behaviorally, whatever it might be. So with those definitions, as we start talking about pushback is predictable, this is one of those things that a lot of families don’t take any time to consider. They think
Well, if I build an intervention, if I do this the correct way and I build an intervention and a strategy to put in new boundaries or a new process or to build rapport and then build relationship and then build a process of unifying the family around a certain goal or whatever it might be. After that, we fall into the, I’m going to say the absurdity that the parent thinks this is going to work without any problems.
Robert Trout (04:15.842)
The kids just gonna listen to me and where it’s gonna be so simple and all I have to do is do this once and the problem will never come up again. So Paul, this is where I’m gonna pass it to you because if a parent is in that mindset and they’re working with us very often, that’s where we get to this conversation of OK, pushback is predictable. It’s going to happen.
How it happens depends on the kid and their processing and their mentality and let’s be absolutely blunt, their level of mental health challenge. All of these are factors in how they’re going to push back, but the pushback is going to happen 100 % of the time. There’s going to be them figuring out how to maneuver around or through whatever the parents have put in place. So I’m going to pass this to you.
to give an outline of this predictability and just your general thoughts on starting the like, okay, when we have this conversation, where do we start?
Paul (05:25.086)
Yeah. So oftentimes when we’re meeting with families, we actually do have a lot of parents who are like, I know what they’re going to say. I know how they’re going to react. I know. And so they do get into the predictive mindset. And also they don’t necessarily plan for the next step in the recognition that, okay, my kid’s going to have some version of a blow up, right? Or a push or a pull, or maybe they start threatening.
You know, so there are so many different presentations that teens effort in a way of trying to grasp that control. And one of the things you said earlier, Rob, was developmentally, we should expect that. It’s predictable. It’s something that teens should do and will do in some way, or form. And this is often when parents start to feel out of control.
is that preteen teen and certainly into those like rich teenage years of high school where their kids are really trying to figure out how they fit into their peer culture. And so their prioritization in focusing on that means that they’re pushing away from the family and pushing away from the family could mean isolation in their room. It can mean screaming and yelling. You might hear things like, you don’t understand me. You don’t listen.
or, you don’t understand how hard this is for me. We hear that echoed many a time for, parents who are struggling to have the conversation, the parents feel like they need to have. And so it comes back to being able to be with your child and attuned to your child. And so when we talk about this being predictable, you know, at the very least some fundamental behavior patterns and.
outward expressions that they’re going to exhibit when you try and hold a boundary, try and maintain an expectation, try and hold some structure, create an opportunity for them to show up as more mature, right? Show up and do more adulting, because that’s the whole point, right? You’re growing a healthy adult, or that’s the idea. And so being able to create an opportunity for them is really important, an opportunity for them to feel some tension and make a good choice.
Robert Trout (07:43.093)
Thank you.
Paul (07:53.215)
So the, oftentimes when we’re talking about the shift that a lot of parents come and try and figure out with us and establish to make their family culture healthy, it is often about creating choice for your child. Hey, here’s the edge, here’s the boundary, and here’s the thing that might happen or will happen if you go beyond it. And of course,
Trying to paint that picture to a teen who maybe has had a lot of flexibility and a lot of freedom in their previous years, or they have an expectation of what high school is supposed to be, or having a car or a driver’s license means, or having a first girlfriend or boyfriend or partner means. These stages of life are wrought with expectation. And being able to have the conversation with them, I mean, that is a skill.
to sit down and have your child hear you out without them erupting. And so again, predictably, they’re gonna either shut down and pull away and withdraw and isolate, or they’re gonna get bigger and maybe scream and yell and try and deflect the conversation and point finger and project, meaning you’re the problem and this is why I hate you and so on and so forth. Or there’s the really…
Robert Trout (08:53.122)
Yes.
Paul (09:17.15)
really interesting kid who can litigate with his parents or her parents and say, tell me why. What is the, how come we’re doing this? What’s the process here? I don’t understand. That doesn’t make sense. And so no matter which kid you have, being able to answer those questions is important when you’re trying to support them and being grounded and moving beyond the predictable reaction. And oftentimes when we’re talking about
Robert Trout (09:22.562)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (09:39.235)
Yes.
Paul (09:46.903)
these predictable reactions, gotta, oh my gosh, it’s so important to recognize where they’re at neurologically. And what that means is, if they’re in a reactive place, they’re probably in some version of a heightened emotion or maybe even thrown all the way into survival where they are in fight, flight or freeze. And if your kid is wide-eyed,
and you can just hear the tension in their voice and their breathing is more shallow and their face is flush and their eyebrows are furrowed and their shoulders are up next to their ears, know, all of the external affect that lets you know that they are extremely activated. You’re no longer having a conversation. You’re no longer having a conversation. You’re dealing with somebody who’s shut down.
And again, shutdown can look like explosion, but truthfully, their brain is not capable of receiving. So when we’re talking about predictability in terms of having the conversation and laying the foundation of a new expectation, it could be predictable that that first one blows out in some way, shape or form. And I think this is where, as you were saying, Rob, to start this conversation off,
Robert Trout (11:01.912)
Yes.
Paul (11:09.79)
A lot of parents get attached to having a singular conversation where it is a moment of true transition. We were this and now we’re this. Whereas the kids are going to take it in stages. They’re going to push back on it. They’re going to feel it. They’re going to get pissed. They’re going to get resentful or at the very least angry or frustrated or confused or sad. And then they’re going to have a lot of questions. And if not questions, they’re going to
Robert Trout (11:21.453)
Yes.
Paul (11:39.683)
maybe adhere to it for a bit and then they’re gonna regress because that push-pull of a teen is like, all right, I’m gonna give, but what do I get? And so being able to have a dialogue with them and talk with them about the what, why, how, and for what. And why are we stepping into doing something different? What is the point? I was fine, everything was good. Or I didn’t think it was that bad.
Robert Trout (11:49.08)
Yes.
Robert Trout (11:59.086)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (12:04.323)
Yep.
Thank you.
Paul (12:08.882)
or I don’t understand why we’re making this change, or how come I’m having to do this and she’s not the sibling, or he’s not the sibling. And so being able to think your way through that first conversation predictably, and also again, not get attached to the outcome, pull yourself back, reorient with your co-parent, or at the very least have the conversation internally with yourself to go, okay, at least the seed is planted.
Now I have to circle back and reengage. what we talk about often, Rob, and I’ll toss this to you in a second, is set and setting. When are you going to have the conversation? How are you going to establish the conversation? What’s the language you use? How are you conveying that this is actually all about us growing together rather than control, control, control? Because oftentimes the presentation, the initial presentation sets the stage for how
you’re going to be having to reengage that certain, that specific topic. So I’ll pause there and toss it back to you, Rob. What would you add or, you know, yeah.
Robert Trout (13:18.242)
Yeah. think the only thing I’d add to the baseline of this conversation is the, you know, the parent that’s saying, well, you’re saying pushback happens 100 % of the time. How can you be so like dead set on that? And honestly, the answer to that is, well, tweens are in a stage neurologically, typically, where they’re looking at the structure of things and saying, or starting to question like, why do I listen to you all?
time. Like why is that necessary? They’re starting to feel that sense or draw towards independence, towards being their own people and making decisions to learn from their own decisions. Then you get into full-blown teenagerism and these kids are well beyond that. They’re into that stage of I’m learning my own life and I don’t want to follow your path. Your path is not what I want for myself.
So they are independent and separated and having that sense of like, it’s my life. Why can’t I do what I want? You know, it’s that whole drive to freedom that people in general feel at different stages of their life. But the teenagers are really already there in a very neurological format of saying, your rules are irrelevant to me.
Paul (14:27.157)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (14:40.622)
And that comes out in different ways, but that’s why pushback is 100 % predictable is because they’re there. Then you get into the older, like the young adults, and very often that’s a little different. The baseline to that is the like, they feel like they should be free and they’re not. And that’s very confusing for them on a neurological level, especially if the world or circumstances or developmentally they’ve been trapped into the like, well I still live at home.
Paul (14:58.208)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (15:09.548)
I don’t have my space, I don’t have my purpose, don’t like whatever that… extremely challenging and frustrating. I mean, they’re really locked into this, like they don’t understand why their life isn’t what they imagined it would be, right? And again, throw in the sprinkles of developmental delays and processes and diagnoses and mental health and you sprinkle that on all three of those categories and it just gets bigger.
Paul (15:13.374)
Which is really challenging and a high degree of stress.
Paul (15:25.398)
Sure, yeah.
Robert Trout (15:36.886)
Nothing lessens the predictability of pushback to a system that’s having, you know, it’s coming across as a sense of control or it’s coming across as not taking them into consideration.
Paul (15:50.825)
And I think that point right there, the not taking them into consideration is huge for a teen because they feel disrespected and they’re, and young adult for sure. And a phrase that we toss around a lot when we’re having this conversation is why would I listen to you if you’re not listening to me? Why would I listen to you if you’re not listening to me? Every teen thinks that every teen and young adult.
Robert Trout (15:57.09)
Yeah, any young adult.
Robert Trout (16:13.41)
Yep. Yep.
Paul (16:16.126)
Like, you’re not even trying to understand where I’m at. You’re just telling me who I should be. And that is like tension, just tension. And that’s often where parents actually, again, grasp at the control of, they should be listening to me. They need to listen to me because they don’t know. And for every parent who says that, I’m like, well, what do you think they know? How do you know what they know?
Robert Trout (16:26.616)
Yes.
Paul (16:42.836)
Have you been curious about what they know, how they think about it, what they’re doing about it, the choices they’re making, the perspective that they hold and the nuance that they’ve actually cultivated around that topic, around that behavior, around that social conundrum? Slow down. That’s, mean, when we’re talking about predictable reactivity and predictable behaviors that teens and young adults exhibit, what we’re really talking about is be curious.
Robert Trout (17:12.258)
Yeah, it’s curiosity. There’s also an element of this where a lot of parents, they don’t understand that you can’t just walk in and change the rules of the game. Intervention is a process. Step one is outlining a new rule system, a new paramount like this is what life looks like now. That’s step one. And too many parents fall into the trap of feeling like, once I do this, things will get better. And we have to be the like,
Paul (17:12.554)
Be curious.
Paul (17:32.694)
Sure.
Robert Trout (17:42.028)
No! Things are going to get worse first! Because pushback is predictable. So you set up the new game, they’re going to try to adapt that game, or very often squash that game. If they can make your life hell, where you give up on the plan you put in place, they win! Like, it’s that simple!
Paul (17:43.222)
Ahem.
Paul (17:48.5)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (18:06.06)
So step one is outlining and that’s where you get into the real skill that we go over in our trainings and stuff, right? It’s like, don’t just walk in and hand this to them. You have to look at where they’re at developmentally, where they’re at emotionally and where the whole family system’s at to really put a plan into place that can work. You have to be committed to this roadmap, not step one and then you just hope it gets better. Step one is that. Step two is allow the pushback.
Paul (18:12.436)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (18:27.114)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (18:33.384)
register where they’re at and then start with language and technique to dig into what’s coming up for them with the changes. Because if you can get them invested in the change versus fighting the change, that’s step three. Step three is now we adapt to everyone’s input and ability. Let that sink in for a minute. Their ability to understand
Paul (18:43.99)
Ahem.
Hehe.
Robert Trout (19:01.546)
and integrate the changes that you’re headed towards. Intervention is not one and done. One, two, three. Step four is then working with them to start with small changes, not expecting them to be perfect in the new system overnight. So there are consequences to the repetitive behavior, but it’s not zero to a thousand. It’s not like, you know, you do this one more time, you’re out.
Like that’s not going to work for intervention Unless they’re already too far gone to accept a new system, but that’s a whole other podcast episode What we’re looking at is step four and five is adjusting the process where they’re talking and working with you to make these changes leaving room for them to push back make impulsive decisions
make a mistake tour that’s not in line with the new goals and for you to meet them there in conversation and consequence so that they feel that something is different. But it’s not like, well, you just lost the whole game because you screwed up again. You made a mistake again. You know, the disheartment for the kid or the young adult, the disheartment is such a key part of this.
that parents need to pay attention to. Your job is to not shame them or put them in a place that they feel like it is impossible to win this game. You have to make it winnable. And that’s usually by starting with compassion, curiosity, and flexibility towards like the small steps. So step four is break it into small steps. Step five of an intervention is to stay then on top of
weekly, daily, whatever your family system needs. But, you’ve got to like touch in on this in a way that doesn’t make it like our whole life is about making this change. But, you do need to stay in contact with the goals that are happening and, and this is where you get into like the final phases of intervention, really recognizing that when the change you were hoping for starts to be present,
Robert Trout (21:23.98)
You’re giving that change, that positive change, the attention necessary for them to understand they have won the game. Too many times parents, they see the positive and they’re like, we did good. We made it change. But if you’re not speaking that, showing that, demonstrating that to the individual, it starts to lose power. And you need this because this isn’t like a one month…
two month, three month, like we’re talking about probably years of reinforcement and adjustment as you go and just visiting it until it doesn’t matter anymore. The behavior and the change and the process has shifted for the whole family system that they don’t even need to think about this.
Thoughts on any of that?
Paul (22:11.464)
Yeah, yeah, I’d like to go back to the beginning and just recognize that we have families that, well,
Paul (22:24.848)
struggle with the idea of getting their kid to do something and thinking through the lens of control. And if their child pushes back on it, then the parent takes it personally, as if it’s about them. And again, I wanna reinforce something that we’ve said, I think a couple of times now, is it is so normal.
for a teen and a young adult to push back. It has nothing to do with you. It might sound like it and it might feel like it and put yourself back in your teenage years and think about how you were just trying to make life easy. And sometimes you didn’t think about your parents feelings. You actually oftentimes were just thinking about yourself. It’s a very egocentric self-centered time of life. And so watch out for taking their pushback personal.
Because your reactivity is going to actually stimulate their reactivity. In these situations and conversations, you are the anchor. Meaning, your stability promotes receptivity. Your non-reactivity helps them to understand that adult conversations are possible. If you are reactive to their pushback, if you get your tone in a
Robert Trout (23:45.922)
Yes.
Paul (23:51.775)
a place of tension or judgment or ridicule or sarcasm even, they’re going to feel belittled and they’re going to feel like they’re being treated like a child. And when any teen or young adult feels like they’re treated like a child, boom, you’ve lost them. You’ve lost them. That conversation’s over. And to maybe even try and wrangle that conversation, it’s going to take you 20 minutes, hour, an hour. You know, you’re going to have to do some
pretty skillful de-escalation to pull them back into receptivity. That being said, when you’re again thinking about these pushback predictable behaviors, understand going into the conversation that those are gonna happen. And that’s the work is holding your seat and staying calm in the face of their reactivity, in the midst of their.
Robert Trout (24:24.224)
Yes.
Robert Trout (24:41.72)
Yeah, well.
Paul (24:50.016)
Predictable shutdown, explosion, sarcasm, push, poke, pull. Like if you know it’s coming, hold your seat, take a deep breath, relax your face. Don’t say something unless you could say it in a way that sounds non-judgmental. Because again, you are the anchor of that conversation. And so if you’re expecting them to show up, it comes back to, why would I listen to you if you’re not listening to me? And if…
Robert Trout (25:11.843)
Yes.
Paul (25:19.506)
you’re not listening to them and trying to hear them out and doing it in a respectful manner, it’s not going to work. It just goes into this cycle of arguments and cycle of dysfunction that I’m sure you’ve been thinking about and struggling with. And so you’ve got to disrupt the cycle. And it’s going to take several actual, I mean, gosh, I don’t even want to put a number on it. It might take
Dozens of times of you actually disrupting the cycle of your reactivity for your kid to be able to hold their seat eventually Because they need to reset their nervous system when after you have done your own version of that Okay, and we can talk a ton of about skills around how you do your self-care How you prep the space how you take the time to really?
Slow down and give them the opportunity to erupt. Give them the opportunity to erupt. Don’t try and control it. Give them the opportunity to erupt for the sake of them then being able to show back up in the conversation. You being able to hold your seat in the midst of that? my God. That is such a gift for your child and it’s a gift for your relationship and it actually generates more safety.
and ultimately their receptivity.
Robert Trout (26:44.846)
Yep. Well, I think we should move towards final thoughts. And when we talked about this, like, this is very simple on my side of things typically. So my final thought is this. If you’re a parent and you’re having to change the game, put in new rules, boundaries, structure, whatever it is. So intervention, you are building a new process for this individual. There are two main considerations. Very simple. One.
This change is not just for them, it’s for the whole family. If you try to make it about them, you’re losing. This is a family change, not an individual change. Because you have to change how you interact with them, how you teach them, how you mentor them, how you set the structure and follow through with consequences. You need to change how that happens. This is about all of you. That’s number one. And then number two is pushback is predictable.
Paul (27:18.857)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (27:23.445)
Yeah.
Paul (27:27.08)
huh.
Robert Trout (27:44.172)
So don’t hold it against them if they act either the way you expect them to act or they surprise you and they blow out or more than you anticipated maybe. Whatever that might be. You can’t say, well you fought me on this change so you lose. I’m gonna make it harder and I’m gonna take away everything or whatever. It’s like no. Like pushback is predictable. You need to leave room in the plan for them to blow.
Paul (27:52.278)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (28:14.528)
Reregulate and start over that’s when the change starts the change does not start when you lay down the change The process the new boundaries the whatever the process of change starts after the blowout and they are Regulated and able to accept that you are changing the game Now we can make progress But you have to leave room for both of those things to happen
Paul (28:17.611)
Uh-huh.
Robert Trout (28:45.024)
And if you do that, it’ll save you a lot of stress too. Because you just know that you’re following a step system to get where you want to go with realistic expectations that it’s not going to happen overnight. And that they’re just going to understand and willingly accept what you have changed and put there.
Start there for me. What about for you? What would you close with?
Paul (29:17.45)
The behavior patterns that parents and their children have together, it’s exactly that. As much as you recognize your child is going to have these pushbacks, take an objective lens about your reactivity to that. Create an opportunity for you to work on whatever that reactivity is.
Okay, and create the space for your own insight building process, because I think you nailed it, Rob. Like the parents need to do the work. You know, we need to do the work as caregivers, as adults, as the anchors in the system, in order to slow the moment down and have it be a regulated conversation.
Robert Trout (30:05.966)
Absolutely. Well, we hope this has been helpful. Come find us at parenttrainers.com. Take one of our intensive trainings. We’ve actually re-amped it again to make it more accessible and easier for families to get through. And use that training and use coaching with us or someone to guide you and kind of go through the process of change for you and your loved one. This is a important process as a parent.
and come find us if you need help.
