Robert Trout (00:01.358)
Hello and welcome to the Parent Problems Today podcast. Today I’m your host Robert Trout along with Mary Zahnbrecher from the Parent Trainers team. And today’s episode is slightly different than some of the episodes we’ve had in the past. We want to kind of step into a topic that’s also a message. And this is a message for every parent that is listening to this right now. We’re going to title this episode from Hopeless
hopeful and the reason for that is that today’s topic is looking at a paradigm shift that happens for a lot of the families that we work with and This is really centered on the idea that it is a very natural Process for parents who are working with a teen tween or young adult who especially one that is stepping into a mental health process
or going through a crisis or a struggle or a breakdown or something that’s happening for them neurologically. Now for those parents, we recognize a pattern and that’s what we want to talk about is that a lot of parents who find us and other resources to work with, they’re not in the middle of the road. When we look at this idea of having the energy to work towards a problem, very often humans
And this, again, is a message of hope. Humans have a process that we step into where we go negative first. We guess what to say or do. We think of ourselves as doing a bad job. We start to become judgmental, self-judgmental, and judgmental of others. And we start to step into this zone that we can only call hopelessness. Now, this is where we get
to kind of assess ourselves as parents. In hopelessness, we see one of two primary reactions. There are other reactions, but the primary reactions are one, in hopelessness, we become charged. We don’t like this feeling. We want a solution. We want to change the circumstance that’s happening for us and driving this process where we feel this energy
Robert Trout (02:24.408)
that makes us either react or change. And we’ll get into that in a little bit. The second outcome to this that’s primary is when parents step into hopelessness, they shut down. They start to isolate. They start to push themselves away from not only their children, but others, friends, partners, family dynamics, whatever it might be. We see this kind of leveling away from the conflict and struggle that’s happening.
that in the first place created the sense of hopelessness. And Mary, I’m going to pass it to you, but I first want to kind of create a definition. And then I want to get your thoughts on this definition. When you’re a parent and you’re listening to this, when we’re talking about hopelessness, what by definition we’re trying to look at there is a place where you start to believe on any level
that there’s no way to solve for the problem that we’re witnessing. And that problem can be varied, any kind of mental health process, behavioral process, et cetera. So by definition, hopelessness, that we’re starting this conversation, is a state where you as a parent start to give up. You start to see no way forward, and that either shuts you down or creates a place of reaction. So Mary, what do you think of that definition?
where would you start in that conversation?
Mary (03:52.242)
Yeah, I love it. think it’s spot on. I’ve seen so many parents arrive to work with us who are in that spot and maybe don’t quite notice it yet. They don’t notice the impact that it’s having on them. And the way I kind of see hopelessness is this neurological process for parents, right? Where they have been in fight or flight for so long, right? Like you said, our brains naturally go negative. Our brains are still
naturally programmed to find survival mode. And so after so much what we could call wear and tear, right, of that, that anxiety that parents live with and function with, that they then kind of find themselves slipping into the the freeze mode of our nervous system, which then becomes, you know, why even try or, you know, a lot of parents say,
I feel as though I’ve tried everything within our means, right? And for some parents that’s program after program after program. And for some parents that’s, you know, a therapist, change at home, school, you know, school shifts, you know, but that they find themselves sometimes in this state of, I just can’t hold the hope that there can be change anymore because I feel like I’ve exhausted the options and I am exhausted.
And that’s the point in my work with parents where I say, great, I’m holding the hope for you because I have seen change. What we do can create change. All you have to do is be brave enough to go there.
Robert Trout (05:36.354)
Yeah, absolutely. And where that takes me is this awareness for most families that by the time you accept that you need help, you’re way down the rabbit hole most of the time. Now, every now and then there’s the outlier. There’s like, we started having problems two weeks ago and we don’t want this to become bigger. And that’s amazing to us when we find those individuals. But very often, the parent that’s looking for that level of
Mary (05:50.976)
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Trout (06:06.178)
help and hope is someone that’s tried everything that they could resource for themselves. And here’s part of what I want this conversation to kind of step into with each one of you that’s listening to this is parents don’t typically have master’s degrees in counseling.
Mary (06:12.395)
Mm-hmm.
Mary (06:27.68)
Thank you for that reminder. I constantly remind you.
Robert Trout (06:30.326)
Okay, so yeah, when your kid starts to struggle, when there’s a mental health process budding, you know, we’re looking at a 12 year old and, you know, they’re starting to shut down at school or not talk to you like they used to, or like something is shifting here, or there’s a traumatic event and their personality completely shifts on its head, like overnight. There’s a process to this where,
I want every parent to hear like give yourself a break. You didn’t expect to quote unquote have to deal with because that’s the language we hear a lot, right? I you know, I have to deal with I have to handle I have to etc. And that’s the weight. That’s the emotional weight that parents are usually filling and we acknowledge that. So within that is the messaging of saying give yourself a break. You weren’t prepared for this scenario.
Mary (07:09.27)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Robert Trout (07:28.726)
that’s okay. What we’re looking for however is for that parent to look at their reality and say okay there’s something new that I don’t understand. I’m gonna need some skills and strategy and some processes to support the mental health aspect for my child, behavioral health aspect for my child, the neurological process for my child. I mean just fill in the blank.
Whatever it is, you as a parent now need to step into a process that you can be helpful. I’m going to say helpful to become hopeful. Okay? And that’s a core messaging for what we have always tried to do. And sometimes I know we come across really strongly. But, and. And.
Mary (08:07.763)
Yeah.
Mary (08:22.897)
There you go.
Robert Trout (08:25.304)
There’s a reality there where the helpless parent is looking for a foothold. Take this step first and you’re going to head out of this darkness, right? The metaphor dark hole that you’re in. You’re going to start climbing out, but there’s a lot of steps to it. And that can be overwhelming, but that’s where the support comes in, where our coaching comes in, our process comes in.
Mary (08:34.87)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (08:52.984)
We’re going to step by step lead out of where you are now into a place where you can see the picture differently. You see the scenario differently. And for so many parents, I mean, we’ve heard it for years now, you I read the books, I Googled what autism is, I, know, whatever the statement is, I don’t care what it is. Parents over-educate themselves without developing skill. Let’s just be honest. They over-educate themselves without developing skill.
Mary (09:18.955)
Yes.
Robert Trout (09:22.798)
and without skill, knowledge is useless in a functional way of actually interacting, intervening, and creating change processes for ourselves and for those we love. So in this case, our children, kind of where we kind of try to focus in on. Thoughts on that, the walk out, like where do you find parents and what’s next?
Mary (09:44.876)
Yeah, so many thoughts on that. You know, just hearing you talk about giving them that foothold, right? And you are not meant to understand all of these things, right? You are not meant to know how to deal with a child who’s 10, who is all of a sudden having outbursts constantly, or a child who’s
15 who yeah, kind of stopped talking to you a little bit, but then all of a sudden is locking their door and screaming at you and slamming their door and not coming home on time, right? We’re not meant to know those things as parents, as loved ones, right? Like that is a level of care needed where yes, like the books may help you understand or maybe find some sympathy.
Right. But what you’re talking about is what we do is that actionable step. Great. You read the book. What do you know? Don’t just give that information to your child. Don’t just give that information to your co-parent. How do you make that functional within your family system? Right. How do we take what we know about, you know, a characteristic of autism or a character characteristic of what you might see?
with someone with substance abuse and actually put it into practice in terms of the parent guiding the way and feeling hopeful enough to begin guiding the way, right? Because that’s what we’re kind of talking about is the stuckness, right?
Robert Trout (11:31.394)
Yes. And I want each parent that’s listening to this to understand that like we’re throwing out some suggestions. social or sorry, substance use, autism. but I want you to fill in the blank. If you’re a parent listening to this podcast, you have to understand that the blank is whatever you are working with, with your child. Okay. So we’re talking about failure to launch. We’re talking about ADHD, depression, suicidality, like anxiety disorders and social anxiety.
All the things, okay? And when we have this episode where we look at it and say, okay, hopeless, I think any parent that finds themselves in this situation, they understand basically what that means. Like you’re at a place that you’re out of ideas, you’ve resourced to the point that you might be overeducated and exhausted. Okay? This is the place where now here’s the call, the call to action, the call from hopeless to hope.
is the are you ready to understand that there is hope for you, there’s hope for your family, and there is hope for your child, but it starts with you. That’s it. That’s the first step. It starts with you because your child isn’t going to magically change. Your family dynamic isn’t going to magically change.
You know, that’s the… I’ve had parents that talk about how hope is their greatest challenge. Because hope keeps them stuck because they’re hoping someone else will solve this scenario for them. They are hoping their child will wake up and decide to change. They are hoping that something will just shift automatically without any intervention.
And that hope keeps them locked. And that’s ironic. But it’s also very true as far as like hopelessness has the word hope in it. People need to understand that. That’s part of it. Like it’s all contained there. But the hope is being reinforced around I don’t have to do anything because I’m out of ideas. I tried everything I know. So shifting from that to the call of action and that call of action being if you’re ready.
Robert Trout (13:57.216)
as a parent hearing this, if you’re ready to give hope to yourself, your family, and your child, then it is time for you to start taking steps out. They’re not gonna magically happen. So you’re gonna have to do some work and you’re gonna have to start with step one. And yes, you’re tired, we get that. So many of the skills we talked about step into self-care, beginning time of separation from the problem to get perspective.
doing assessment, all these things that can actually gain you energy back, especially if you start to see hope if you start making these three changes. Right? So your call to action is just as simple as that for me. What about you? How do you see this play out where a parent steps out of that hole and towards process? What do you see?
Mary (14:48.082)
I will just say this, know, something that aligns beautifully with just this overall feeling of like, I’m just, I’m, don’t know if I have it in me. I tell parents, one of the best things that they can start to do is to actually say less and do less. So how about that? Right? What if we give you permission to actually stop trying so hard, right?
Robert Trout (15:11.694)
You
Mary (15:17.252)
and giving yourself what you need, really looking at instead of scrambling to quote unquote, fix a problem or manage something. And we’re talking within the bounds of safety, of course, right? I mean, if you’ve got an unsafe child that’s a little different, but the parents who are constantly worrying, right? We talk a lot about mental energy, not just physical energy of.
getting to soccer, then getting to here, then all of these things, but the mental energy you spend worrying or planning or overthinking what could be next. Instead, use that time to really check in with yourself. Make sure that you are taking care of yourself. I mean, we’ve all heard the cliche, you can’t pour from an empty cup. And a lot of times the parents that we see
arrive to us are almost empty, you know, or past empty. And so this idea of if I can actively think about how can I step back if my child is safe and stop begging for them to come out of their room or, you know, fill in the blank. What is the issue that you are constantly trying to figure out, right?
and just start focusing on, I have five minutes. I could go up there and, and try to interact, or I can take five minutes and walk the dog, go outside barefoot, call a friend and say, Hey, I’ve only got five minutes, but I wanted to see how you were. And it’s the doing less in terms of continuously trying to solve a problem or fix something. Right.
And that leads into what you were talking about with that step of assessment, right? Because if we’re hands off, we can truly see what is going on. And if I’m truly regulated, I can see from a more clear lens, what’s going on? What’s actually happening? If I say less, my child might fill in the space, right? Fill in the gaps and say, you know, give me some more information, some more
Mary (17:42.262)
data on what they actually might be needing that I’ve just missed the mark. Once I was working with a mom and her son was really difficult in the mornings, very easily set off, zero to 100, very quickly, some pretty unsafe behaviors actually in the morning. And we had been working together for a couple of weeks.
Robert Trout (17:54.392)
Very interesting. Very well.
Mary (18:06.08)
And we talked about this idea of anger being an umbrella emotion, a secondary emotion. And it’s like it clicked one day. The mom had been seeing this as the child being angry about some medical situations and some other things going on for them. But one day it just clicked and she said, are you anxious right now? Just by stepping back and listening more and not doing as much?
Robert Trout (18:18.094)
Perfect.
Mary (18:35.786)
and not trying to pour herself into this, what she saw as a problem, right? Which was becoming a problem in the family system. She asked that one simple question and the son said, well, of course I’m anxious. What did you think? Right? And it was just this aha moment that she allowed herself because she was able to step back and really start to look at what is my son saying instead of,
Robert Trout (18:56.846)
Thank
Mary (19:05.266)
What do I feel like I need to give him right now?
Robert Trout (19:09.474)
Yep. Yeah, and I mean, there’s countless examples of that. But I think for the purpose of this episode, I think we should step into the hope and kind of talk about the processes that we see a lot of families get to when they do the work, right? They answer the call, they go through their scenario, like you’re saying, and they get to that place of like, OK, step one, two, and three, here we go. So when it comes to hope, I want to
Mary (19:19.585)
Yeah.
Mary (19:23.82)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (19:37.684)
each and every parent to understand that hope is built in these scenarios. We have a misconception in our culture that hope is something that happens for us or to us. It’s kind of that karma view, but that’s not actually how it functions. Hope when it comes to especially family systems and mental health and relationship and
kind of parenting allows us to look at it differently and more clearly because hope is something that is created and hope is created through action.
When one person does something different, it creates opportunity for new experience and new outcome. That’s hope. At its root, that is hope. Now, on a social level, when we look from behavioral science for any parent that’s interested, hope in that format is something that we see a lot. But what we see is we see it in group format, right? Large numbers of people.
Sharing a belief about a system or a process that should change. Working towards that change. That is action in motion. And that is hope. They are building their own hope for a future that is different, for a scenario that is different, for a timeline that is different than what they were just, you know, though that group
thought they were just supposed to accept. this is how it is. This is how it is, is a mind trick for hopelessness. Hope was built through one person deciding to start a conversation about something that they think should be different, and then growing that into two people, four people, 10 people, et cetera. And that’s how hope moves through social situations and social dynamics.
Robert Trout (21:50.156)
Now the checks and balances to that is that others don’t share the same hope. And they’re working and trying to find it. So in that way, on a social level, hope is about finding balance and creating change over time. And I use that example for any parent that’s listening so you understand that it’s the same for you. One person has to start a process of change. Guess what?
That’s you. If you are different as the parent, it offers opportunity for your child to be different. That’s the root of all the work we do and all the work that you’re going to find when you start to dissect and do assessment on someone from hopelessness to hope is a moment of decision that change is necessary. And then from there, the actionable steps to create that change.
with the onus, the responsibility put on you, not on the child or the partner or the whole family or et cetera. The responsibility is put on you. And yes, there is an emotional weight to that. God, I feel that in all the parents we’ve ever talked to. Yeah, taking on that responsibility is exhausting. But taking on that responsibility with skill and a
plan and the ability to see that in 16 steps from now something’s going to be different than it has been that we you know a pattern we’ve been locked in for the last three years is going to be different in 16 steps from now when you can see that roadmap when you see the playbook there’s a great metaphor one to two to three to sixteen equals the
first level of change and then we’re going to come back and start moving towards the next level and the next level so that in three months, six months, a year, sometimes longer than that, you can have the life that you hope for. You can have the relationship with your child you hope for. They can have a functional young adulthood. They can overcome some of the challenges related to their personality disorder or crippling anxiety.
Robert Trout (24:15.222)
or autism or whatever it is, fill in the blank. But you creating with skill the roadmap and steps, and that’s where work with someone like us comes in, but we help in that assessment and step so that hope comes out of the work. You put in the work, you create hope for yourself and your child and your whole family dynamic. Hope is not a stationary effect.
Hope is a momentum effect.
Thoughts on that? I know I just went off the deep end there. What do you got?
Mary (24:51.304)
Yeah, no, no, everything is everything you said really rings true. And one other big piece I really want to impart is it’s that group mentality you were talking about. That’s where the support comes in, whether it be us as a coach, right? Saying, you’ve tried this, but have you tried it this way or have you tried it more than once? Right. That’s a famous one we see. Well, I tried it didn’t work. Try again.
Robert Trout (25:17.261)
Yes.
Mary (25:20.022)
to get you, to help you get step by step, right? We don’t just say, here are some skills, go try them. We stay with you, whether that’s the community that we’re creating online, right? That supports one another and talks about, yeah, I’ve been through the same thing. I’ve been in that place. Being able to talk with other parents who have been through similar things, who really understand where you’re coming from and can…
Robert Trout (25:26.776)
Yes, absolutely.
Mary (25:49.568)
you know, champion you into sticking it through and having that hope and holding the hope, right? It’s almost like for some people, it’s like the fake it till you make it. If we’re looking at this and like put on your hopeful glasses, right? What do you see now? Right? What does that look like? And we use that a lot in the therapeutic world. And then let’s step back and look at how is that actually feasible for you?
Robert Trout (26:01.834)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (26:12.003)
Yes.
Mary (26:16.598)
So it’s about also, yeah, having that support step by step by step. You you’re gonna have your days where you’re exhausted. You’re gonna have your days that feel harder than others. But you know, one big thing I have noticed is a lot of times when I’m working with parents, you know, we’ll get on our first call after the training, our second call after the training, they were like, well, that went horrible. This week was just horrible, right? And then once we actually talk about it,
The week went really well. It just felt like a lot, right? And just having that outside perspective to help you hold on to hope, to help you see actually, I think what you’re feeling is valid. It felt like a lot, but you handled it really well. You utilized the skills, you utilized the tools. You did the thing we were talking about.
Robert Trout (26:52.259)
Yes.
Mary (27:13.544)
And so having that support, I think is such a big function of hope, especially when, yeah, we can’t hold it for ourselves, right? Having others hold it for us, not in a cheerleader Pollyanna way, right? But in a, I’ve seen people like you and I’ve seen this work and I know we can do this together and we’ve got this whole community behind us. Let’s see what we can do.
Right? It may not be the exact thing you’re thinking might have come out of this, but let’s see what we can do together. And just seeing parents shift once they utilize the skills and things begin to change. I mean, it’s this feeling that’s almost indescribable for a lot of parents, right? It’s this, I step back, I didn’t say the thing I normally say, and guess what?
Two days later, my kid came to me and asked me about something. They start to see this momentum, whether that just be an opening in the family system that wasn’t there, an ability to work with you on how do we do this differently? It’s not really working for us. Every time we try to wake up in the morning, whatever it is, fill in your blank, right? You the parent know what that is for you, but being able to…
see those first kind of aha moments of hope are just, I mean, it’s why I do this work. You know, I think it’s why we all do the work.
Robert Trout (28:46.381)
Yep.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think we can close with that. I mean, for any parent that’s listening to this, where we’re trying to get to here is that hope exists. And sometimes even we forget to talk about the victories, right? And some of those victories are really small, where, you know, the kid got out of bed and didn’t yell at anybody. The kid went to school. The kid got a job. The kid, you know,
Only cussed at you twice today, not five times today. That’s a victory. So from this move from hopeless to hopeful, make sure that you understand that you are the one. You are the one capable of creating hope. And that’s powerful. It really is. And you’re not alone. And…
There are thousands of stories of victory for parents that have found themselves in situations that they didn’t plan for or they didn’t understand in the beginning. And they learned, they learned how to step in differently, how to be present with the mental health, with the behavioral challenge, with the neurological process, with the diagnosis that at first might’ve been devastating.
but they were able to figure out a way to push through. So you’re never going to be alone because there are millions and millions of us who are parents, who are professionals, who are trying to support parents and who are working with support groups of parents to parents. You’re never going to be alone unless you isolate yourself. So come find hope. Find us at parenttrainers.com if you’d like to work with us.
Robert Trout (30:44.93)
to get that direction and build your roadmap and the steps out from hopelessness to hope. And we’d love to support you.
