Robert Trout (00:01.554)
Hello and welcome to the Parenting Problems Today podcast. Today myself, Robert Trout and Paul Arradondo from the Parent Trainers Team are here to discuss a topic that comes up for more parents than you might think. There are certain themes that roll out no matter what age the kid is, what the problems are with the family dynamic, all these different things. And one of the themes that we’ve run into over the years is a general subject.
that goes a lot deeper and that subject is parenting shame. And I know that a lot of parents are hearing that going, well, that doesn’t relate to me, but hold on a second. Cause shame is something very often that people misinterpret because shame is also a counterpart to the idea of guilt. And all of this is tied together in the idea that as you parent, you’re going to make mistakes.
Let that sink in for a second. As you parent, you’re going to make mistakes. Now, mistakes can get pulled apart. That can be its own episode. But the reality is, is that every single person, every human makes decisions. They react. They have emotional, like things come up for them that they’re like responding to and reacting to and doing all these things. And it’s not till hindsight.
till usually an event is over that there might, might be a moment of reflection. And in that reflection, that’s where I start to find families and parents that are going and being like, I did that wrong. I was so bad at that. I shouldn’t have said that. I shouldn’t have stolen, know, taken his phone or, or taken the keys away. Like they realize that maybe they went too far or maybe they didn’t go far enough.
Paul (01:34.318)
So,
Robert Trout (01:56.894)
or like whatever end of the spectrum they’re on, shame and guilt is a concept that parents need to look at in the sense that it impacts their future parenting. Whenever you think you made a mistake, the mistakes add up. And sometimes it’s a big mistake, even tied to a story that you already have from when you were a kid and things your parents did or grandparents did or whatever that might be. So.
It’s all tied to this idea that when you’re parenting and you make a mistake, what we’re here to talk about today is the reality that those things can compound into this behavior pattern that you can’t necessarily see. We become blind to our guilt or our shame or to the concepts of things that we don’t want to look at because we want to think of ourselves as doing a good job.
that we haven’t screwed up our kid, that what’s going on for them isn’t our fault. We try to avoid, we try to hide from, all these different behavior patterns that really play into different personalities and different mental health things going on for the parent, all kinds of stuff. So I know that’s a very lengthy intro, but we’re gonna try today to have a conversation to go a little more in depth about just the fact
Paul (03:00.174)
I’m to a minutes to say a words about the we’re doing. I’m few say a words work that we’re doing. I’m take few minutes to a words work I’m a minutes to a about work Thank you for your time.
Robert Trout (03:21.104)
that a parent can reach a place that they are parenting from guilt. They are parenting from shame. And that is a pattern that we have seen as professionals for years and years that we sometimes have to be the ones to hold at the mirror. So we’re going to talk about the mirror. We’re going to talk about how to get out of the guilt and shame. And we’re going to really look at this from kind of holding the whole of the story together.
So to start this, Paul, I’m pass it to you just with a simple question. What pattern would you say is most common or the thing that comes out of this conversation about a parent that when they’re telling their story, we as the outsider, right? Cause we’re not in it. As the outsider, we get to be the ones to say that statement was tinged with tone and reaction and process that brings up for us that you might feel guilty about this. You might feel shame about the situation you’re in or
Paul (04:04.43)
I think a very common, a common.
Robert Trout (04:19.142)
how your kid is doing or whatever it might be. But what comes up out of that for you when we start getting into this with a family?
Paul (04:32.822)
It’s going to sound weird. A common reaction is overreaction. A common reaction is the thing where a parent internally goes, my gosh, I didn’t handle that well, or look how my child’s reacting to the way I handled that moment. And either they swing towards maybe from assertive communication to aggressive communication or aggressive communication to passive communication because they’re just like, my God, my relationship is falling apart with my child.
Robert Trout (04:36.757)
absolutely.
Paul (05:02.042)
Or, my God, my child’s pushing back more. Now I have to push back more on them. And so there’s these overcorrections that can ultimately get in the way of their relationship with their child, but really be an internal conflict for themselves in their parenting style of, I don’t know which direction I need to go. I’m not sure how to manage this. I just don’t know.
So there’s a, from the confusion becomes overreaction. And so those are a lot of the, the tipping points that we often see as you were saying, Rob, like we can look at a moment and, see these parents say, well, I had to because my child did. And that in itself perks my ears up in terms of, wow. Okay. So let’s look at that moment and let’s, take a.
big objective step back and go, okay, how has that shaped who you are as a parent now? Not only how you’re being with your child, but how you’re showing up for yourself or not. Because as it comes to the shame or the guilt, and just to put a finer point on the difference there, guilt is, that was a bad thing I did. Shame is, I am a bad person. And so shame is, I’m a bad parent. I didn’t do that right. I’m the problem.
Whereas guilt is, wow, I made a mistake. Let’s figure out how to fix that. Or let’s figure out how to re-correct or repair. And so when we talk about shame, that’s that moment where a parent might actually flip from what you were describing Rob, where like, God, I don’t know what I’m doing here. And two, wow, I’m the problem. It is me who’s struggling. And that can be an actually a very positive moment.
if it’s met with, again, some objectivity. Because those are those moments where we can take a step back and go, OK, wait a minute. What did I contribute? How did I show up? What does it mean for me to re-correct or repair? How can I get with my co-parent and have a process of repair there first? Because that’s often the first step is to not only take care of yourself, but then come back to your co-parent dynamic and
Paul (07:22.816)
work with that and get on the same page to then meet your child. And I think that we can talk about how shame can interrupt that as the priority system. Right. And so before I dive into that, because that can be again, as you said, Rob, its own its own podcast, I want to toss it back to you and hear more about what are some other things that you’ve seen in terms of parents behavior patterns when shame is a
Robert Trout (07:36.946)
You
Paul (07:51.916)
the part of the processor integrated into it, in fact.
Robert Trout (07:55.122)
Yeah, so I want to be careful for the listener because this is one of those things that can go a thousand different ways. So if what we talk about in some of these scenarios doesn’t resonate with you, it doesn’t mean that you’re not in this. It just means you might be one of the outliers because for me there’s been two primary setups or situations that come out of parent shame.
The first is looking at this internalizing parent that they start to shrink from the equation. They don’t hold boundaries. They don’t put consequences into place. They don’t do these things because they have shrunk themselves by all the mistakes they have made that they have retreated into this place of I am a bad parent. So I shouldn’t even try to parent.
Paul (08:43.37)
All right
Robert Trout (08:47.182)
or they won’t respect me anyway because I’m a bad parent. There’s an internalized pattern, story, structure that you really need to be aware of if you’re listening to this and this is striking a chord because there’s an element of saying, okay, you’ve made mistakes and this pattern can develop, but that doesn’t mean you can’t change. It doesn’t mean that you can’t build relationship or put boundaries into place or parent.
It just means that you might be lacking in the systems, structure, interventions, and strategies that are going to require your whole family system to change. But I want to honor that one of those behavior patterns that is most prevalent is the internalizer. They’re taking it in and just becoming smaller and smaller in the family dynamic in question. And in those situations, we usually, not always, see the child ruling the family.
through their behaviors and their patterns. So that’s the first. Yeah, go ahead.
Paul (09:46.389)
And it.
And yeah, just to add upon that, there’s a variation of where one parent is more dominant than the other. One parent takes on more of the boundary holding, more of the expectations around structure, more of the bad cop sort of scenario because the other parent isn’t quote unquote doing it right. Right. And so that shrinking away can be that passivity, but it can also be, as you said, the shaming or the experience of just
Robert Trout (09:54.928)
Yes.
Paul (10:18.072)
conflict avoidance.
Robert Trout (10:19.504)
Yes. Yeah, again, that’s where we’re getting into personalities and their own traumas and therapeutic need, et cetera. So big topics. But when we look at the standards, that’s the first pattern, the primary pattern that we might see. The secondary primary pattern is the, I’m going to say the overreacher is probably the best title for it because the shame drives them to become better and better and better.
Paul (10:23.47)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (10:27.342)
Okay.
Robert Trout (10:45.38)
And I’ve met several of these parents over the years that, for example, they’ve read every parenting book. They’ve listened to every parenting podcast. They are an expert on parenting. Except their kid. And a part of that is that the shame creates a dynamic of fear sometimes where they’re like, I’m going to understand all of this, but they don’t facilitate it well.
Paul (11:05.83)
Hey.
And.
Robert Trout (11:13.904)
Right? So there’s usually on this end of it, a relationship rupture where the kid is pulling away as fast as they can and the parent thinks of themselves as so prepared and so et cetera, but the shame has just driven them to this place of, don’t want to feel that way. So they’re running from the feeling of the mistakes they think they’ve made.
Because no matter what they do, what they learn, what they implement, cetera, their relationship, and this one is very relation driven, right? This pattern. Their relationship gets worse and worse. Their kid wants nothing to do with them. There’s just so much separation. And a part of that dynamic of running, the kid pulling away and running, is the like, well, I’ll never match up.
Paul (11:36.625)
Okay.
Robert Trout (12:00.604)
to what you want me to be. So there’s that juxtaposition, right? It’s like the parent being like, I know exactly what to do, but there’s no relation in it. And the kid runs from that and pushes away and there’s all kinds of those dynamics. So to your question, those are the two most common, but then there’s the outliers. And we don’t have enough time on this episode to get into that. That might be great to look at later.
Paul (12:28.032)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one variation that often, well, not a variation, but a nuance to that second.
Second example is the lack of objectivity.
it ultimately gets in the way of understanding the difference between intention and impact.
Robert Trout (12:52.838)
Yes.
Paul (12:54.292)
You might be very well-intentioned, like you said, well-read, understand all the concepts, has the ability to quote the book, know the author, look at all the podcasts and how that person actually goes about it. You can have the right language, but if your tone is off because you’re carrying something around your own anger and frustration and impatience, the impact is vastly different.
So being able to work with yourself again, and this goes back to the shame piece, know, coming back to managing your own emotions needs to become priority when you’re feeling the shame or you’re having any of the experiences or even the outliers that we haven’t named. If you’re feeling like you are withdrawing or going too much into, there’s probably some sense of anxiety, probably some sense of pressure.
more than likely some attachment to an outcome. And so creating that opportunity for you to take a step back and go, wait a minute, what’s my goal here? How am I going about this? And is this my goal or is this my kid’s goal? And who is my kid? Because as you said, Rob, like a lot of parents have this vision of who their child is becoming.
Robert Trout (14:09.796)
Hahaha
Paul (14:20.622)
and their child is taking a different path. And when those two realities meet, it’s conflict. And so being able to be with yourself as a parent, as a caregiver and go, okay, is this my projection of who my kid is? Or is this actually who my kid is? Because that’s where a lot of the disconnect comes from. And that’s where a lot of the missteps happen. And that’s where lot of the overcorrections are sourced. So,
It’s a cycle and we talk about it in other podcasts and in our coursework around this idea of looping and these different ways that family systems just kind of run the same story but in different iterations. And so this sense of objectivity and again, we talk about this ad nauseum in all of our, in many different ways, take that step back.
Have that conversation with yourself, have that conversation with your co-parent, have that conversation with your siblings who maybe are looking at your family from a different perspective. Who are the people who can help you have objectivity? Because that’s always the first step to saying, okay, what support do I need?
Robert Trout (15:32.038)
Yep. Yeah. Well, okay. So I feel like we’ve touched really deep into the dark hole that parents can sometimes find where it’s like, do relate to that. I really hate myself for that. I, I agree. I’ve made all these mistakes. Like shame is such a triggering element. So I want to honor that anyone that’s listening, if you’re triggered, that’s okay. I’m not going to apologize for it because you’ll get triggered from a lot of different things. We all do all of us.
Paul (15:48.728)
share.
Paul (15:55.726)
huh.
Robert Trout (15:59.088)
So, but let’s step into the problem solving element to this. The, okay, I’ve got shame and guilt and it’s impacting my parenting. How do I find my way out of this? And I’ll be honest in all my years.
There is only one thing that I find to be the golden like ticket in this category. And there are treatments and different things in therapy and like all that kind of stuff that you can do to better yourself, better understand yourself, lower reactions, like things like that.
Paul (16:23.95)
Okay.
Robert Trout (16:30.342)
But when it comes to guilt and shame, for me, it’s a process of accountability versus blame. And this is a self process that a a human needs to do when they start looking at shame and guilt, where they start separating, where they recognize the trigger. That’s where you’re right. We do talk about agnostic step back, assess what is happening. And that’s also a self assessment. What’s going on in me, what is being triggered in me. And that’s where
Paul (16:58.817)
I’m here.
Robert Trout (17:00.316)
you get into this like golden path out of this where it’s like okay I’m feeling this about how I’ve done this in the past or doing it right now whatever it might be and I recognize that I’m feeling guilty I’m doing this wrong I’m a horrible parent whatever story you’re creating for yourself it doesn’t matter
But what you do is you hold and some people actually do this like you can hold your hands up like okay This is accountability and this is blame and I need to ask myself. Am I blaming myself? Because when you blame yourself you discount all the other people Involved and it might just be your kid, but it could be more to be your partner could be the family You were raised in it could be society could be so many things right, but when you go towards blame
You recognize and say, wait a minute. If I do this, I’m going to put all of this impact on me. And that’s what I don’t want to do. So what I want to do is change and go a different direction and say, what part of this is mine? I am responsible for a piece of this, not all of it. But one piece of this is mine. Let me look at that and analyze and say, OK.
Am I really tired because I’m not sleeping well and I’m trying to have a deep conversation or emotional conversation when I’m not grounded. I can take accountability that I chose the wrong time to engage this behavior, this activity or this conversation and that’s mine. I chose the wrong time. So now what do I do? Well, the next step is first of all step away and take care of yourself and
Paul (18:39.982)
Uh-huh.
Robert Trout (18:42.0)
Redo the scenario and we’ve done an episode on this in the past the repair work. It’s like I’m not gonna apologize I’m gonna say that didn’t go well for either one of us I’d like to try again and that could be that day It could be the next day could be like 48 hours later. Like you do it. Don’t save it forever But repair work is a part of this accountability where you go. Okay, I didn’t do this Well, I need to take care of myself get better rest sleep whatever it is and be better prepared and have
more time to think through what I’m gonna say and I’m gonna return to it. So step one what am I accountable for? Step two take care of myself to be better equipped for everything that’s going on. Step three is try again.
And people miss step three. I want to be honest. That’s one of the biggest problems is people are like, well, I don’t want to go back into that crap. They avoid, they run from, they don’t do it. And that’s where we get into the like, okay, the, you know, when parents say I made a mistake, I’m going to hold that up and say the problem, the problem was step three is you, you never went back. It’s not even a mistake. It’s that you missed a step.
Because you do need to get through this conversation, this relational connection piece, this consequence, this boundary, whatever it was, you do have to get there. You can fail the first three times. You just repeat steps one through three over and over again until you get it to a position that both people are regulated in a space to do it.
but blame versus accountability and being really clear with yourself about what you and your intention as an individual is going to be in this scenario. And I’m going to say done correctly. It’s recognizing that, okay, I feel myself in this blame, but that’s not true.
Robert Trout (20:37.042)
It’s not just me. There’s this this this and this and I’m not gonna be like well, then I’m just gonna blame you It’s all your fault, right? That’s not the direction. It’s okay blame is not going to have the outcome I’m looking for but accountability can and it starts with you Taking care of yourself and redoing and figuring it out and creating a new pattern out of the shame Into the place of saying I can’t accomplish this as a parent
I can have this conversation. can put this consequence in. can create a boundary. I can be relational. can like all these things are up here and that’s your ladder out is through accountability and I guess repair work in general. What would you throw into that?
Paul (21:25.26)
I think a greater emphasis on the self care aspect because a lot of parents feel exhausted. A lot of parents feel overwhelmed. It’s not just about their kids. It’s about work. It’s about the relationships. It’s about family life. It’s about Gosh, things that are going on that are much bigger than us. And ultimately, when it comes to doing the repair work effectively, we need to be resilient. We need to actually do the things that
bolster our capacity. And so it’s so foundational. You mentioned sleep. That’s the number one indicator of resilience. Cognitively, emotional stability, physical energy, your ability to be present. Sleep is a big lunch pin of that. Think about hydration, think about your blood sugar, think about getting in some movement, some exercise, and I’m not talking like rigorous exercise, I’m talking about go for a
Robert Trout (21:56.37)
Yeah.
Paul (22:23.318)
And so being able to think about those basic four things to support yourself in feeling more present for your child. Because I said earlier, intention versus impact. What’s your intent of stepping into this conversation or stepping into it again, as you said, Rob, or maybe a third time, because maybe that first two times it was a swing and a miss. So being able to create the space for your child to regulate.
It starts with you being regulated. It starts with you being grounded. It starts with you being present. You are the anchor as a parent. And so being capable of being that anchor, that’s the invitation, right? And so I think a lot of parents in hearing something like this go, my God, I don’t think I can do that. And so therein lies the cycle of the shaming, right? And so being able to step into what is it?
mean to take care of myself first. And that’s a very counterintuitive notion for a lot of parents is wait, I prioritize myself before my kids? That’s selfish. No, actually, no. What kind of parent do you want to be? You doing the self care is actually good modeling for your child. Walk the conversation into the kitchen and grab a glass of water and hand one to them while you’re in the conversation. Walk them into the kitchen and grab a bite to eat, slice an apple and hand them a slice.
You know, whatever it is, create the space for you all to stay present. Cause if you’re low blood sugar, your kid might be. And what’s that recipe in that conversation? You know, if you’re tired, is your child tired? man, that’s a hard conversation to have no matter the topic. So you mentioned earlier, Rob, this idea of like the environment, the set and setting, you know, I missed the boat on that one.
doing the assessment and being in that objective space to understand like, I prepared for this? Let me check in for myself. Is my child prepared for this conversation? Let me think about where they’ve been throughout their day. If they just got home from school, they’re probably hungry and dehydrated because that’s school. They’re probably tired and overwhelmed because that’s school. Give them a little time, hand them a snack, hand them a drink, and then have a conversation with them a half hour later because those are the healthier, more
Paul (24:46.382)
robust conversations that you are wanting and creating with them are the ones where they can hold their seat and you can hold their seat, your seat and have the tension be manageable. Right? We want to actually work with parents and family systems to make conversations workable. And so that’s what we’re talking about primarily in this conversation is like, how do you make these things workable? Because for so many parents, as you said at the front end of this conversation,
Robert Trout (25:05.33)
Yes.
Paul (25:16.994)
They’re overwhelmed and they don’t think they can make it work.
Robert Trout (25:22.172)
So I guess, I mean, we should move probably towards closing thoughts on this because I don’t, as you drag these conversations out with these big topics, for everyone that’s listening, like eventually you end up down the rabbit hole of all the scenarios and all the outliers and all the things. And I guess my closing thought to this is to keep this simple.
Paul (25:36.069)
Of course, yeah.
Robert Trout (25:46.994)
If you’re a parent and you’re relating to some of this and you’re like I do feel guilt I do feel shame I do feel these things of like I did things wrong and I wish I hadn’t and I’ll never get that possibility back is there’s an element to this of hope in the sense that You need to realize that the past is the past When it comes to interventions interventions are all about the present changing someone’s relationship with you
Paul (26:12.366)
Yes.
Robert Trout (26:16.07)
behavior patterns, ability to problem solve or think through things, to parent, to teach. That’s what parenting is. You’re teaching them how to be more functional, relational humans that can go out on their own eventually.
if that’s the task then a part of that is recognizing that if you have a pattern of internalizing or separating through like You know trying to get the most knowledge or whatever your pattern is to that There’s a part of it and saying I’m gonna stop what I’m And if you can communicate that to your children
I’m going to stop what I’m doing because I’ve reached a point that I realized that how I’m feeling, how I’m reacting is impacting our relationship. And I’m not going to let that happen because how I know myself to be is that I love you and I want to teach you and I want us to have a relationship of trust and that we can be connected. That’s what I want. To name that to your kids out loud is sometimes life changing for your children. Just put that up there.
Paul (27:22.302)
Profound. Yeah.
Robert Trout (27:24.752)
But then that’s a part of this of saying like what I feel like I have become is not what I’m going to be. Now I’m going to change gears. I’m going to hold myself accountable to what has happened and I’m going to work my way out of it communicating with you the whole time so that you can see that I’m trying to change because I know I’ve said this a lot and it’s kind of our corporate motto for parent trainers is
Paul (27:37.358)
you
Robert Trout (27:55.608)
If you as a parent can change, if you as a parent can change, your kids can. It doesn’t start with them. It never has. It starts with you. So that’s my closing thought is to recognize that you have power.
Paul (28:09.586)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (28:18.618)
And if you’re in guilt or shame or this pattern for yourself, your power is to recognize that you get to say, I’m not going to do this anymore. I’m coming out and I’m going to be different. And that will be life-changing for you, your family system, and your relationship with your kids. Now, will it be easy? Absolutely not. Will it be impactful? Absolutely. On them and you.
and I’m going to say that most of the parents who have successfully fought through this they would tell you that they just wish they had started sooner. That’d be my closing thought.
Paul (29:00.822)
Yeah, and what I would say is we’ve been in this conversation, it’s about we’ve been trying to support perspective. And the question that I imagine everybody listening to this is like, well, how do I do that? And so what are the actionable steps to repair to shifting behavior patterns? Because if you knew them, you’d probably be doing them, right? I think that’s the human nature aspect of this is like, know what we do what we know.
And so being able to understand what your options are requires reaching out and asking for support and having somebody give you some guidance, give you some suggestions, creating space for conversation that helps you expand your awareness of what is available to you. And so if that’s us, great. If that’s somebody else, excellent. Create the space for you to resource.
and understand that resourcing and the willingness to resource is part of the shame as well. We feel like we need to be doing this on our own and we feel like we should know the best path. And let’s pause for a moment and just recognize like you were raised by your parents, how’d they do? How’d they do? What was the model? And recognize that your partner was raised by their parents. How was that?
Robert Trout (30:20.238)
Yeah.
Paul (30:21.1)
You know, and so create the space for you to slow down and step back and go, we’re doing what we know. And maybe we’ve tried to swing the pendulum and try and do it differently. And still there are seeds of the same flavor. And so creating the space for you to understand options, take some courage and some willingness to reach out and create some vulnerability and express that objective lens of. I need help. I don’t know how to do this.
And that is often the first step for any parent who’s wanting to course correct and create deeper relationship and safety within the family system.
Robert Trout (30:59.59)
Yes. Very good.
As always, come find us at parenttrainers.com, join the community, get some coaching from us to figure out your plan, to get the support to do this if this process is what you need help with. And as always, to do one of our trainings to get better equipped with the strategies and interventions, to work with your kids and to support your whole family system, including yourself. You don’t have to do this alone. We look forward to seeing you there.
