Robert Trout (00:01.064)
Hello and welcome to Parent Problems Today, where we come and we talk through situations and family kind of dilemmas and processes that our clients and families bring to us. Today’s conversation is between myself, Robert Trout and Paul Arredondo from the Parent Trainers Team, where we’re going to present kind of a alternate, I’m gonna say viewpoint on a tool that is grossly misused and grossly misunderstood.
by most families. At Parent Trainers, we talk very often about concept versus action. And that, in a nutshell, is really looking at the idea that parents read a book or a blog or they get an idea from a professional where it’s like, okay, if we just do this thing, it will solve the problem. And at Parent Trainers, we very much don’t believe that. We look at the, you have to understand the process, the concept,
putting something into place and you need the actionable steps to use it with your loved one, with your family system, with everyone involved. It’s not if we do this it’ll get better. It’s we have this that we’re going to implement and we’re going to put the steps into place. So today’s topic is a very big one that comes from a lot of different angles in our industry, in the therapy, in treatment centers, parent coaches all over.
families have fallen into this idea that somehow if they write a behavioral contract that things will just suddenly get better where they are. So they’re called behavioral contracts or home contracts or I mean they might have a couple other different names but what we’re talking about here is where parents are sending their loved one down these are teens tweens young adults who are struggling with a mental behavioral health process and
They’re coached through this process of saying, let’s almost make a deal with our kid where they say, here’s the behavior that’s not working for us. Like smoking pot, not going to school, not cleaning your room, like any number of things. I pick any issue that a parent might be fighting with their kid on a behavioral level. And then people are looking at this and saying, okay, so what we’re gonna do is say, okay, if you don’t clean your room,
Robert Trout (02:25.579)
you don’t go to school, you are going to have this consequence come in and you’re agreeing to that consequence. And that’s what… there’s a nuance to this conversation today where when you create a behavioral contract, at the bottom of that contract is this place where you’ve gone over it with your loved one and they have to sign it as if their signature makes this a legal binding document that they agree that if they do this negative thing
They agree this consequence will happen and they will not argue. They will not fight back. They will not disagree with the consequence that occurs because they knew that it was there. And I’m going to be the loudest voice on the mountain screaming as a professional that that is just it doesn’t work. You’re coming at this from an angle, especially for someone that’s probably neurologically delayed.
behaviorally delayed in their growth as they’re going through whatever it is that they’re going through and you’re sitting them down and telling them all the bad things they’re doing and then telling them all the bad things that will happen to them if they keep doing it and then saying sign it and that’ll make everything better and There’s so much folly right and that’s why we’re talking about this today the folly of behavioral contracts where You’re expecting this piece of paper to matter to your child
in our professional experience. That’s just not the case. In fact, very often I know kids that take that behavioral contract and they use it as a roadmap to say, here’s the ten things I could use to punish my parents or pay them back or try to make, you know, get attention or get my needs met through this because they’ve told me the things that they’re paying the most attention to. Situations like that unfold all the time.
But I’ll pause there because I mean, I could go on about this forever because we’ve seen these things fall apart at every turn for families in every situation. So Paul, I’ll pass it to you and just say like, what’s the first thoughts that come up for you about these behavioral contracts and things that we want to talk with parents about today as far as like, you know, look at it like this, not this, things like that.
Paul (04:48.45)
I think one of the things that we often talk to parents about is, you you can paint the clearest, most idealic version of what you want your home to be. And, you know, and that’s wonderful, right? Because we’re not going to tell you what your family culture should be. We’re not trying to tell you what you need to do. This is more about, you know, having some perspective and taking a step back and asking the simple question, is this thing that you’re putting on paper
sustainable for you as a parent, not for your kid, for you as a parent. I mean, of course we want the kid’s behavior to change, right? And that’s why these things exist is because there’s something to be talked about, something to be discussed, something to give attention to, something to create at least a conversation, right? And so creating the space for that opportunity for the parents to step.
You know, that’s always the first thing when I’m working with somebody is like, Hey, we again, paint this idealic lens of like how the transition should look and what we would like it to be. And, you know, you are going to have to hold some boundaries. You are going to have to be clear about black and white clear about what it is that you’re wanting to shift towards. And ultimately, if you can’t maintain that with some consistency or, know, as you were saying, Rob, like
Having the idea of an agreement is one element of change. If you’re not maintaining rapport with your child, if you’re not creating opportunity to normalize conversation and normalize conflict and normalize repair and normalize the way you get to sit down and have regular check-ins, then the paper doesn’t mean anything. So it really is about how are you looking at this, and this is kind of a loaded word, holistically.
Right? Taking a big step back and recognizing that, you know, primarily this is about relationships. This is about you all coming together and understanding of what it means to tend to your family values, respect, authenticity, trust, patience, accountability, and so forth.
Robert Trout (06:50.972)
Yes.
Robert Trout (07:05.499)
Yep.
Yeah, and I mean I can start dissecting some of this for the family that’s listening saying well we’ve tried these contracts over and over again and sometimes the contract’s very specific right like I know lots of families that they use behavioral contracts around like the phone or devices and that’s it right but even those fall apart at every turn because the parent shows up and here’s falling number one I think the parent shows up with this well you signed it why are we still fighting
And I just want to make sure that every parent that’s listening to this understands that that’s the folly that we’re talking about in this episode. The folly is the expectation that just because they agreed in that moment that there’s not going to be pushback, that there’s not going to be the fight following that meeting or family kind of putting it, like you said, black and white, like this to this to this. So the folly really always drives down to that signature at the bottom.
where I encourage all of my families not to have them sign it. There is no agreement on the kid’s side. When I talk about it, I really hope the families look at it more as a family empowerment model, a parent empowerment model, where the parent is saying, I’m open to your suggestions. Absolutely. And that opens the relationship, right? And I’m just letting you know, and that’s what this paper is for, is that the next time this happens,
this will be what the consequence is. So there should be no surprise on your side or mine, accepting, and this is the hard part, accepting as the parent that you’re still not going to like it when that happens. I as the parent completely understand that you’re still going to push back and fight and etc. And that’s why a lot of the families I work with, coach through this pattern of saying
Robert Trout (08:57.979)
Here’s the action. Here’s the consequence that you’re going to enforce. And then sometimes there’s even that secondary consequence where you say, I’m going to give you a couple hours to accept that that consequence is now enforced. And if you keep fighting past that, then this secondary consequence will kick into place because what I’m looking for is your acceptance that you acted, a consequence has occurred. I’m just looking for your acceptance of that.
So we’re trying to find that point where the child the teenager the young adult doesn’t matter where that person goes Yeah, yeah, I did it and now this has happened and I accept it. I don’t like it Remember that’s so important to this folly conversation is making room in the relationship for them to always not like That a negative thing has occurred to what they consider to be their rights their life
their connection, especially if it’s a phone or a device or something like that. So what we’re really looking at on a functional level is an understanding of consequence structure.
but without the secondary fight of, you agreed to this because that’s where I see the parents lose their cool. You signed it, so it’s your fault, right? And it’s like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like let’s back off of this idea that a kid’s signature and kid meaning young adult even like these pieces of paper for every parent listening, I mean this with love. This piece of paper means nothing in a court of law.
Paul (10:12.014)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Paul (10:24.962)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (10:33.319)
don’t care how old your kid is this this isn’t between like a contract about money or buying something or etc this is about understanding how if you do this in your life there are consequences to it so that’s the first thing i always kind of step into paul what do you got
Paul (10:52.522)
Yeah, I think a really important aspect of what you were just speaking to Rob is how parents can be reactive in the face of their child perpetuating an old pattern when there’s been a discussion about like how to shift it. And, you know, the idea of having an agreement or having at the very least insight building process around, hey, I see you’re doing this. Hey, I see we’re doing this together.
As like a parent-child dynamic, hey, you know now my opinion about why that is not good or why it doesn’t work for me or why it’s not supportive to the family system. And creating an opportunity to, as you said, Rob, like take that perspective and recognize that your child is still going to be reactive and it’s your job not to be reactive. The idea of having this insight building process, creating a plan, moving towards action.
Robert Trout (11:43.771)
Yes.
Paul (11:49.952)
your role on the other side of that level of depth and connectivity is to not react, it’s to respond. So yes, you should expect them to push back. Yes, you should expect them to be teenagers, be young adults, be tweens, be claiming their autonomy and their independence and wanting to pull away from the family and be in their classic differentiation, right? And so being able to slow yourself down.
as you’re going into a conversation, pause, release some of the tension in your chest and your throat as you’re engaging them, knowing surely you understand that they have not tended to the document, not tended to the expectation, not tended to this agreement or contractual litigated thing that you believe you have, creating that space to again, slow down.
Robert Trout (12:40.329)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (12:44.389)
Yes
Paul (12:44.812)
Slow yourself down because, you know, I said earlier this is about you maintaining relationship and if you’re showing up with reactivity, they get to point the finger at you and say, see, it’s your fault. And that’s like a classic reactive behavior pattern that we see cycling through family systems. So being able to take a step back and do differently yourself actually creates the safety for them to change their behaviors. So when you’re doing any sort of behavior change for your child, you have to first take a look at yourself.
Robert Trout (13:08.998)
Yes.
Robert Trout (13:15.513)
Absolutely. There’s also what you were just saying that, you know, it’s your fault. I want to make sure that parents understand that that’s one of the greatest follies of home contracts or behavioral contracts is that you actually make something, write it out, print it, sign it. Like you have it as this document. And I can’t tell you how many fights I’ve had to help parents like back away from because the kid does the thing. And come on, please hear us on this.
Your kids gotta do the thing that’s on the list. Just because you wrote it down and created a new consequence doesn’t mean it’s not gonna happen again. It’s going to happen. There should be an expectation of continued negative behavior whenever you do these things. And I just hope every parent hears that because it would solve so much stress on you to be like, good, we talked about it, we’re done, woo, we can move on now. No, we talked about it, we have this document, and everyone understands what’s gonna happen.
Now I’m just waiting for the next one to occur. It’s so much easier for a parent that’s expecting it to happen To kind of be in that accepting place of okay, it’s gonna happen. I’m gonna remain calm Right. I’m gonna take that step back. I expected it to happen You know at least a few times until the behavior change can take place Now from that however Or go ahead. What do you got? I know that triggers on for you
Paul (14:43.432)
Yeah, totally. And I think this is actually a really important message for families who feel like they’ve gone through many, many iterations of a home contract, right? Where they feel like we’ve done this, we’ve been through this, we continue to do this. How many times do we have to have this conversation? You know, my kid just doesn’t listen. It’s my kid’s fault. It’s my kid’s fault. It’s my kid’s fault. And, you know, they just won’t, they won’t do the thing. Right. And so, again, you’re the brain.
Robert Trout (14:52.614)
Yes.
Paul (15:13.398)
that is developed developmentally between a teen, even a young adult, they have less capacity to manage themselves, less capacity to manage their reactivity, less capacity to manage their anxiety, their anger, their degree of stress. They’re going to be reactive and we should expect it. And in fact, a word that we haven’t used yet, but we often say is it’s predictable, right? It’s predictable. It’s predictable. It’s predictable that they’re going to push back. I mean, you remember when you were a teenager.
Robert Trout (15:36.145)
Yes.
Paul (15:42.734)
take a step back right now and just put yourself at 16 in your home and the things that you want to do and your parent pushing back on you and say, no, you’re not ready. You’re in that same position. And it might look different in terms of the behaviors, but the reality is, is you’re dealing with an underdeveloped brain developmentally. And so you have to meet them there and you have to be the adult. And that’s, know a little bit pointed in its commentary. And if you’re expecting them to change,
They need to feel safe enough to create that change for themselves. They need to trust that the environment is going to be willing to accept them in that space and work with them in that way. And so you’re going to have to ride that roller coaster, like Rob was saying, creating that opportunity for them to fail, find a little bit of success, two steps back, right? And then create that opportunity for them to, you know, learn the lesson again and again, because if you are in that fifth iteration of a home agreement, they’ve seen it and they’re like, mom can only handle it for this long.
my dad’s only going to handle it for this long. You know, then they’ll toss it aside. I just need to push. And so your consistency and your energy comes back to your idea of like, how do you create sustainability? How do you make it work for yourself first?
Robert Trout (16:44.039)
So that’s the point
Robert Trout (16:55.367)
Yep, and that’s what I want to make sure the point I finish is you’re the only one that cares about this home agreement that was written. Let that sink in for every parent listening to this. You are the only one that cares about this actual document and kind of function of it, et cetera. Your kid does not care. They signed it to get you off their back, even just for a little while.
Paul (17:03.682)
Right.
Robert Trout (17:21.829)
The document itself does not matter to them. It just doesn’t. And that’s partly neurological, but partly behavioral. And we’re looking at creating change. And there’s two things that really need to be seen here. One, the biggest folly or mistake with the actual document is that when they make the mistake, you march to their room and you hold that document in the air and you point at paragraph three, section C, and you tell them exactly what they did wrong, what’s going on.
And now what you’re doing is creating this dynamic that’s reinforcing just how much they don’t care about the document you’re holding because the document is just something that you know it’s there but it’s not real to them it’s a construct. So I want to make a point about concept to action on that before I move to the second part on that one alone.
Do not march into their room and hold that and look at that thing and just don’t do it. The document itself doesn’t matter after you presented it to them. It just doesn’t, right? So instead, make sure that anything that is a consequence on a behavioral contract or in our words, a parent empowerment document where you just said, hey, this is what’s gonna happen next time you do this.
Not you have to agree or it’s gonna be bad or whatever. Hey, just we want you to know black and white then the next time you do this, this is what’s gonna happen. Right?
The way we try to reinforce that is you don’t have to march into the room They did the thing and one of the most concrete examples is like a kid with their phone and there’s those parent apps now Where they didn’t do their homework or they didn’t clean their room or whatever has been tied to the behavior and you have it tied to the phone It’s like okay, they didn’t do that thing and then you press the button on your phone that makes their phone a brick That’s useless. They can’t do anything with it
Robert Trout (19:21.681)
Trust me on this parents. Message delivered. Now that you’ve enacted the consequence without having to tell them that you you did this bad thing and reinforcing the dad speech or the mom speech or whatever. Now the message has been delivered. Two things need to happen. One, you now expect the reaction. They’re going to come out of their room and find you. Because you just turned their phone off.
And that’s okay. You need to make room within the relationship for the reaction without you reacting back and then you just reinforcing them saying, you know, like the, like the thing we went over with you, as soon as you do that thing, your phone will come back on. Let me know when it’s done. No argument.
We try to make this as functional as humanly possible. Functional, not relational. If you fight the battle with relation, relation always loses because you’re turning it into a me versus you versus a, you know, accomplish the task and this comes back into action. You tie life to life versus me versus you. And we really want that to be the goal.
So that’s how concept turns into action. The second part to this is really looking at the idea that for your kid, again, the document does not matter to them. And I want to warn parents that sometimes what happens, and Paul, you mentioned this, it goes into, well, we’re on our fifth behavioral contract. And as a professional, I have to back up and go, why?
Well, the first one didn’t work. And I’m like, how many times did you actually follow through on the consequence that you wrote out for the behavior to get them to feel the consequence and then enact the change over time? And so often parents said, well, we tried the thing and it didn’t work. How many times? I don’t know, twice. And it’s like, if you create a structure of consequence,
Paul (21:07.118)
you
Robert Trout (21:34.994)
Please understand that part of the folly, the thinking about this behavioral contract is, well, if it didn’t work twice, then it’s not gonna work the third time. And it’s like, what we’re looking for is consistency. If you keep changing the consequence, and sometimes I’ve seen families make it less and less of something they’re gonna feel. Other families try more and more of what they’re gonna feel. And sometimes it’s appropriate to change those things a little bit.
to take in feedback, to make it adjustable, things like that might be okay. But I want to make sure parents understand that this isn’t a once, a twice, a three times, a five times, a 10 times. This is a, they become normalized to the consequence so that over time they just know, well, if I don’t do that, my phone’s going to turn off.
And then you see the behavior start to shift because they’re tired of the consequence that they’re fully aware of getting in their way. But this isn’t a short term process. This is a long term process. So make sure you don’t fall into the folly thinking that, you know, the first time this happens, they’re going to realize we were serious and they’re never going to do it again. Nope.
Absolutely not. I am sorry that is absolutely not true and I will not feed into the lie that that’s gonna work. It’s not. This is something that you’re creating that over time, over months, sometimes even years, they’re just realizing that that consequence that is in place is real and then they start to trust that it’s going to be real forever. But if it’s only real the first time and not the third time and not the fifth time, etc.
They don’t trust that it’s actually real in any capacity. This is about consistency on your side, not their side. Thoughts on that?
Paul (23:35.884)
Yeah, I really just find that, well, let me take a step back. Oftentimes parents hunt down folks like us when they’re at their wits end. Right. And they listen to podcasts like this when they’re feeling like, my God, I’ve tried everything. And oftentimes the parent child dynamic or relationship is already really fractured. And one of the classic things that I hate using that word,
Robert Trout (23:46.811)
Yes.
Robert Trout (23:59.986)
Yes.
Paul (24:04.078)
classic, it is very normal for a parent-child dynamic to struggle with the relationship of trust as a concept, as an action, as an expectation. And so one thing that when you’re thinking about like, my gosh, we’ve been doing this time and time again, and it continues to cycle and we’re struggling. I mean, these kids, they get to a place where they’re like, I can’t win. So why even try? And so the
One of the things that we like to talk to parents about is define what trust is, define what creating the space for them to earn it back looks like. What are the behaviors that you need to see consistently for them to maybe get a little extra time or any time on their technology, right? And you work the thing back in, like think of it as like faces, or at least like a trajectory of like regaining trust or rebuilding that.
Robert Trout (24:43.302)
Yes.
Paul (25:01.422)
healthy dynamic that you once had when they were little, right? You creating that space for a conversation around like, hey, we want you to be able to access your technology, to have relationships with your friends, to create an opportunity for you to have a life that you want to live. And ultimately when it comes down to it, if a parent is gripping and going, my God, my kid is impulsive and they don’t know what to do with themselves. And whenever I let them out of the house, they go and they do drugs and they hang out and they never come home and they’re…
that sort of framework or that sort of dynamic, it needs to be teased out in terms of like, again, this idea of relationship separate from expectations, being clear about where your anxiety is coming from, where your fears lie. If not with you, definitely like within your co-parenting dynamic to make sure you and your co-parent are on the same page about how you’re going to engage with like the one I just described. So when we’re talking about these expectations,
Robert Trout (25:47.356)
No.
Paul (25:59.928)
Think of it as like, how do we actually cultivate the child parent dynamic that we’re hoping to achieve? And so usually that takes stepping back and saying, okay, does my kid even know how I view trust? Does my kid even understand like, again, concept versus like action? So you need to be more trusting. What does that even mean? What does that even look like? How do I even like define that? What does like trust mean? means like,
You complete this task, you follow through with this. We stay connected this way. These are the conversations we normalize and we do that over time. And so as somebody starts to show up here, maybe a little bit more opportunity opens up for them. Maybe a little bit more space can continue to be offered because they’re starting to show up. But again, that comes from what you were saying, Rob is like, as a parent, the consistency needs to be there and they need to feel like they have a goal.
to move towards. Because if they’re just being shut down and clamped down and everything is taken away, because gosh, how many families have we met where they’re like, I’ve taken away everything from them and they still won’t listen. You know, like being able to give them a goal to move towards, it’s kind of the carrot or the stick sort of approach. In that sense of like, hey, we love you, and we want you to have a happy life, rather than going, hey, you’re totally effing up and like, we need to contain you.
Robert Trout (27:08.783)
Yeah.
Paul (27:27.0)
Right. And those are two different conversations and two different approaches. And that’s really what, you know, you started off at the beginning saying, Rob is it’s got to be more than just a document. It’s got to be more than just an approach that is like sign the bottom line. And now everything’s going to be different. Creating the opportunity to have the conversations, to stay connected to your child, to be in a good co-parenting dynamic and making sure you’re on the same page to manage this or to be.
consistent around it. All of these are much bigger pieces that we’d be happy to talk to you about and listen to our other podcasts and come engage us. Those are great conversations to be had.
Robert Trout (28:05.093)
Yep. Yep.
Yep. Yeah, and that’s a good closing place really for this conversation. And I think what I’ll do is wrap up by just clarifying something I said a little earlier. You should always expect them to repeat the behavior you wrote the document about. You should also always leave room for that behavior to disappear. It’s a balance of understanding that they’re gonna mess up until things change, until things are different.
But things can change and you need to maintain hope that…
Hope and awareness as the parent that you’re gonna see that shift and make room because if they shift and they are different and you’re showing up somehow in a fight or an argument and you know It comes through that you’re just still seeing them as the screw-up or the one that’s gonna make the mistakes or they’re gonna go use again or they’re gonna run away again or whatever it might be which is the fear the parent fear if that fear takes control
then it reinforces for them that it doesn’t matter if they’re because you’re just gonna always see them in that negative way. So do your work with this process, right? Like get rid of the contract element and make it just a family plan that we’re trying to reach this place of being able to live like this together and I’m gonna stay vigilant as the parent. My job is to be vigilant for when you do become
Robert Trout (29:37.039)
the type of person that we’re proud of and working towards our goals as a family not just, you know, whatever that process looked like for you. So make sure you leave hope and awareness open in the process. It’s so important when you’re creating these type of family documents or plans and things like that because it doesn’t have to always be negative. So hold space for that.
Paul’s absolutely right. Come find us join the community do one of our trainings online and we’d love to work with you and see if we can help you come up with your parent plan versus a contract and you can find us at parenttrainers.com and we look forward to seeing you
