Robert Trout (00:01.605)
Hello and welcome to the parenting problems today podcast today you’re with myself Robert trout and Paul Arredondo from the parent trainers team and today’s topic that we’re coming to you with is something that we run into with families that wonder like okay where are we at and why are things trying to or why are things starting to look a little like foggy within the family system and that’ll make sense in just a moment because.
I have a lot of parents that they think in colors or formats or things like that. So it comes out as this model of saying, okay, I don’t know why things are starting to fall apart. It’s kind of that fog of war mentality. So we’re gonna really look at that because there is a term for this. And for any parent listening to this, this might make complete sense. And this is on both the parent side and the kid’s side.
and it’s called therapeutic fatigue. Therapeutic fatigue is a state, a neurological, physiological state that gets reached over time when families are struggling, when individuals are struggling, when there’s a mental health process happening that’s not being addressed maybe. Or sometimes it’s just that you fought the long fight and you’re just exhausted because you
have a finite amount of emotional or therapeutic energy, right? And I talk about it like a gas tank. You started this journey and basically as soon as you had a child, this is kind of my joke, you went from a full tank to half a tank. It just kind of happens that way. And that’s for the parent because all these shifts happen neurologically, for example, where when the child comes in and you connect,
Bond and there’s that kind of neurological process that shifts for a parent All these things start to take over where you see people step into protector mode you see people step into fight mode because they’re fighting to build safety or resource for the family I mean all kinds of things happen. There’s so many examples of people who fall into
Robert Trout (02:22.267)
states of being where they’re either hyper alert or sometimes you see that fatigue manifest even just after the birth, right? So for a lot of mothers, they go through a process where they’re just really kind of sad or depressed after the birth has happened. And it’s kind of a neurological dump that sets that stage. But it also happens for the fathers. It’s really across the board.
The point is is that having a child changes you and you can’t really stop that change from happening because it’s a programmed response But every person is different it’s across the board every human being has a level or capacity of fuel in their tank and when you fall from a full tank to half a tank your brain says whoa Why did that happen? And what do I need to do about it?
And that’s just the beginning part of this story. Then we get into our world. Where your kids are now moving through 9, 10, 11 years old. They’re heading towards their tweens, teens, young adults. The whole point is recognizing that by that point, over 9, 10, 11 years, you have given and given and given and given as a parent to this person. And they are a person.
Sometimes we forget that. Your child is a human being that has a set of needs, sometimes even a set of demands for resource. And that’s both physical resource and emotional resource from you. So, as we talk about that, there’s this conversation that I know Paul and I are a broken record on about self-care. And really, when we get into that, it’s a conversation about taking time for yourself to hopefully resource
and fill your tank because no matter what your tank is getting drained bit by bit in the capacity as a parent. So, if you’re not taking care of yourself and refilling that tank, it goes down and down and down and I think it’s an apt metaphor that you start to run out of fuel. Now, here’s the two parts of this equation when we start looking at therapeutic fatigue in a family system.
Robert Trout (04:47.927)
I mentioned this at the beginning, it’s not just the parent, it’s also the child or all of the children. Every family and the system and the setup is different. However, what we’re really looking at is this combination that the parent’s energy is collapsing piece by piece and getting lower and lower and that sets the stage for their therapeutic fatigue because as the demand rises, especially for like a teenager who’s going through a mental health process,
They need more attention scaffolding around them resource to learn or adapt based on how they live and how their brain works, et cetera. As they go up more and more, we see parents that go down and down until they’re crashing. And they’re in this place that their fatigue to the point that most parents reach this place to saying, my God, we need help. Or I just give up.
kind of the two directions we see. I give up or my god we need help. And that’s where we come in most of the time because they’re like well something happened. Well here’s the story. Therapeutic fatigue happened. And very often on the parent side it’s over a long drawn out history of giving and giving without taking the time to bring that energy back for themselves.
On the flip side of this, second part of this conversation with therapeutic fatigue is recognizing that for kids, therapeutic fatigue often happens not from a drain of energy. Their kind of patterning seems to be very different. Usually, therapeutic fatigue is seen from this place of being forced to do something over and over at a level that they either give up or fight back.
Paul (06:12.458)
Thanks.
Robert Trout (06:40.443)
Okay, these are the kids that become treatment resistant. They refuse to go to therapy. They don’t want to talk to anybody. They just walk away from you when you try to talk about the problems that are happening in the family system. That’s therapeutic fatigue on many levels within a family system for the kid because they just don’t have the energy for this conversation again. They don’t have the energy to work on
what you consider to be the problem. Because to them, it’s not a problem, it’s their lives. So, so many dynamics there, but this is such a versatile conversation for us as professionals when we look at therapeutic fatigue within a family system. So with that, Paul, I’m gonna stop there, because we’re looking at both those dynamics and kind of jump to you. What are some of the primary things that you’ve seen?
that you want to add and throw into this conversation just about therapeutic fatigue.
Paul (07:40.142)
Sure. mean, obviously, as you said, Robert can present in so many ways, right? And it’s not anybody’s fault because the recognition when we meet families in this state is they’ve been trying and trying and trying and they’ve been giving and giving and giving and maybe seeing some progress, but it’s like one step forward, two step back. Right. And maybe they’ve been resourcing outside of their family system, whether it’s been a therapist or coach or a mentor or,
a local pastor, but creating an opportunity to sit back and just be a bit self-reflective when in this state is so important. Right. You mentioned the self-care process and yes, we are broken records around that, you because you talked about it as a gas tank and how if we do not take care of ourselves, what quality of cognition, resilience,
Robert Trout (08:23.611)
Yeah.
Paul (08:36.632)
communication are we actually offering to a child in need? To ourselves, to our co-parents, to our community, right? I think when we meet people who are in fatigue in the way that we know it or have seen it, there is anxiety, there’s panic, there’s depression, all of these symptoms of just, as you said, either collapsing or feeling like they’re running around like a chicken with their head cut off.
It feels like they’re in the midst of crisis and they can’t see the forest through the trees. And so being able to be objective about it can come from conversations like this with people outside the family system. So that would be, you know, if I’m going to give any first bit of a suggestion is seek objective support. That would be the first piece. But again, the presentation looks so different.
I mean, with some kids, the therapeutic fatigue can happen even before they reach a therapist because the parent has been reading all the self-help books. The parent has been going and getting trainings. The parent has been going and trying to figure it out, trying to do the best thing for their child. And I mean, what a beautiful gift to offer your children. And the child is probably keyed into all the language, you know, keyed into you saying, I hear you saying,
Right? That therapeutics speak, you know, and we see this happening with kids who have either been in residential program or IOPs or they have had extensive amount of therapy, they start to become, as you said earlier, wrong, therapeutically resistant, because they know the language, they’ve been sitting face to face with professionals who do this thing that is called therapy. And so they
Robert Trout (10:03.323)
you
Paul (10:30.932)
are a bit hypersensitive, hypervigilant, maybe even hypo aroused around it, which means they’re going to collapse back and shut down. So creating that space to, again, take a step back and assess where are we at? How did we get here as a family system? Can we pause? And can we even think about what would a reset button look like? Because oftentimes when we meet families with therapeutic fatigue,
What’s been happening is there’s been hyper-focus on the problem and a lack of understanding that the relationship needs attention. There is, again, this idea that if we just fix the problem, everything’s gonna be okay. And the sacrifice that’s made when that becomes the pattern of communication or the pattern of interaction is the relationship, which then…
Robert Trout (11:24.751)
Yes.
Paul (11:25.582)
creates more of a divide or more tension or more conflict within the family system. So here’s my second suggestion. Reinvest in the relationship. And, you know, one of the things that we say in our trainings and, you know, probably in many other podcasts is, you know, think about the last five or 10 interactions you’ve had with your child recently, the last five or 10. That’s the story that your child has about you. So create the space to understand like
Robert Trout (11:48.101)
Yeah.
Paul (11:55.95)
who you are to them and see how that feels, how that sits with you. Is that who you wanna be? Is that who you pictured yourself to be in your child’s life? And see if there’s an opportunity there for you because that’s what we’re trying to support you with is generating opportunity for connection, for rebuilding safety, for creating opportunity to step back in with some new energy, step back in with some new intentions, step back in and maybe like,
shift things just enough. And here’s another catchy thing that we always say is like, just change one thing. Right?
Robert Trout (12:33.433)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let’s, let’s talk about that for a moment because you just said something that’s a key part to, to, me, when we look at therapeutic fatigue is parents start to get exhausted. And within the family system, we start to see language start to pop up, right? where, know, very often it gets to the, like, if we can just fix the problem. Right. So that, that brings up two.
Key points to therapeutic fatigue is that if you’re starting to use language like that, you have lost sight of the human being that’s struggling. Okay, and here’s why. They are not the problem. In fact, there’s not a problem. There is a pattern. There is a process happening here where I would encourage every family to get rid of all language of fix the problem. The problem? There’s not a problem.
Paul (13:10.904)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (13:31.077)
There’s a pattern of interaction and usually some kind of therapeutic or diagnosable neurological process happening for one or multiple members of the family system. If mom is depressed and kid is fighting back at school and using drugs and you know, dad works all the time and whatever, like whatever scenario, right? Like every family and structure is different.
That’s not my point. My point is recognizing that every member of this system starts to struggle. And in that capacity, we have to look at and say, okay, how do we bring balance to the system? And how do we remove the idea that like, okay, if we can just fix this person, which isn’t possible, by the way, you know, that that’s the whole thing. It’s like all the magic pill.
I mean, God, how many times I’ve heard that on an initial phone call with a parent, it’s like, I just wish there was a magic pill. I’m like, well, first of all, we’d be out of business and not able to help anybody. And if I could create that bill, I’d be a multi-trillionaire. you know, we can wish for something that makes life simple. Life’s not simple. Mental health is not simple. And it is not a quick fix.
Paul (14:35.531)
I mean, me too! I mean, that’s fine.
Robert Trout (14:56.515)
Whoever you are, if you’re listening to this podcast, like take nothing else from this podcast other than the reality check that this is going to take time, resources and your attention as the parent to recognize that it’s not just your kid that’s struggling. It’s the entire family system. So it’s about changing patterns and building in scaffolding and process and education and resource.
to everyone in the system so that over time, the patterns, behaviors, interactions, relationship, all those things that are real start to shift and change. But it’s never fast. I mean, even the times where I’ve seen people make massive change during like a family intervention or a process, et cetera, the change doesn’t take effect immediately. They feel it. They know it’s coming. And that brings hope.
But as the person that’s on the outside trying to help facilitate and guide and train this family to a new place, there’s that like, okay, you feel it, now take your breath, because tomorrow they’re going to do the thing that you hate. It’s going to happen again. Not fixed. It’s recognizing that they know something needs to shift, but when they have that action or behavior, you’re going to be different. And now we start to see the change. So, therapeutic fatigue is…
Is really that construct of saying, okay, there’s lots of work to be done within the system. But we need to recognize, okay, the parents exhausted the kids activated. Both of those things can come from therapeutic fatigue and we have to find a middle ground. mean, heck is a I’m trained in narrative therapy. It’s one of my backgrounds and I love the concept because kids like you said it earlier. Paul is like the
I hear you feel, my god, if they’ve been in therapy or that, you know, they know mom read the book, that statement sets off hellacious responses. So, in narrative therapy, there’s that whole technique of saying, okay, we’re not going to say that ever again. We’re going to erase those words and create our own way of communicating to this kid’s brain and then to their person that you’re present with them.
Paul (17:04.598)
Right. Yeah.
Robert Trout (17:21.903)
We just have to rewrite how that works, right? So within fatigue, there are two kind of steps I think we should touch on. One is recognizing you’re exhausted and stepping back and resourcing yourself, self-care, your therapy, your growth, your et cetera, to build the energy for the process that is necessary. But so many families feel like they have to do something right now.
No, you don’t have the ability to succeed if you try it right now and that’s really difficult for a lot of people to recognize But you have to so that’s step one is stepping back and resourcing and getting ready and putting everything into place to support you Step two is looking at it and say okay. We’re gonna start with small change one thing practices and Every day we’re gonna shift this a little bit and maybe in six months three months a year, whatever
Every timeline is different. We’re gonna start seeing that kid become more receptive and you having the space time and energy to not be in fatigue But to be at this place there putically of like I can be present in the chaos that they’re in and not be reactive That’s how you can judge like am I in fatigue or not? Because if they’re in a reactive place or going through something and you just can’t you just can’t hear it again
You just can’t step in and be reflective. You just can’t be in relationship with them right now. You’re pretty pretty easy to gauge that. Thoughts on that?
Paul (18:59.16)
think often when we offer this message to loving parents and caregivers, they often respond with some sentiment of, if I take care of myself, I’m concerned that that’s actually selfish and that’s actually me maybe ignoring my child while they’re struggling. And therein lies like part of the problem sometimes is that, or I would say oftentimes is,
Robert Trout (19:17.403)
Thanks
Paul (19:28.67)
The act of self-care is not a selfish act. It’s in fact good modeling. You taking care of yourself, even if it’s going and getting a glass of water while you guys are in conversation, going and feeding yourself before you feed your child, because that’s going to help you ground. That’s going to help you be stable. That’s going to help you give the energy that you need to give in order to help that child feel safe. You know, being able to go out on a walk and leave your child at home, which
Whoo, man, that is edgy for a lot of families leaving my child at home alone. But what if? Yeah, we can definitely have that conversation. But what if conversation and you know, it goes back to something you were saying earlier, Rob is like. There’s a sense of urgency that I think every parent has when family is in crisis or there’s a perception of crisis and being able to clearly understand what is truly urgent. Urgent is when you’re calling 911.
That’s urgent. When we’re talking about a lot of what we hear from families, we’re not minimizing it. It’s important. It needs to be addressed. It needs to be worked through. We need to think about the patterns, change the behaviors, talk about the skills that actually to implement in order to do that. And we’re still, as you said, Rob, talking about the long game. If you’re thinking you’re going to change something in a single conversation,
that’s part of the fatigue. Because you’re sitting there wrestling to try and create change, like through arguments, through trying to lecture, trying to convince, trying to, if they would just listen, right? I’ve said this how many times, you know, and so those are certainly symptoms of an exhausted parent. And so being able to take that step back, understand that
That’s actually very common and it’s okay. be, you know, be gentle with yourself and the recognition that you’ve been making a lot of effort. You’ve been trying your best. And what we’re offering is, you know, the fact that like, yeah, we don’t know what we don’t know, you know, and creating the space to actually learn a new skill or have a different perspective. That’s what we hope for every single parent who comes and listens to any of these podcasts or seeks out any sort of support for parenting.
Paul (21:54.506)
And so creating the space for you all to again, take that step back and recognize that the perception of urgency isn’t actually always the truth. In fact, it’s fairly rarely the truth. so having that understanding and using that in your co-parenting, using that in your direct caregiving with your child, helping yourself slow down because there isn’t blood on the floor and a bone sticking out. You know, there’s emotion.
there’s truly emotion, there’s distress, there’s discomfort, those are workable things when we slow down, not when we speed up, not when we pounce. That’s when kids shut down or get big, right? And so us being able to slow ourselves down through a shift of perspective is one step. And so the energy and the fatigue that comes from
Robert Trout (22:38.373)
Yep.
Paul (22:49.378)
this sense of urgency being so alive in the body. I mean, you were talking about it earlier, Rob, like the neurological shift. It’s through the whole body. It’s not just the brain. Your nervous system is activated. Your muscular system is tense. You your digestion is disturbed, right? What we’re talking about here is the recognition that we hold a lot. And when we’re holding and bracing and creating that tension,
Robert Trout (23:06.02)
I
Paul (23:17.536)
It burns calories as much as it burns our emotional energy as well. So being able to pause and relax yourself and do the self care actually creates space for your child to feel safe. When they see you presenting as calm, they actually trust that the moment is safe. If you show up angry or irritable or frustrated or judgmental, they move into, I don’t feel safe. Now I need to control.
Robert Trout (23:35.429)
Yes.
Paul (23:47.286)
And so this exhaustion cycle or this loop or these patterns, whatever language you want to use, take a step back and just recognize it for what it is. Again, nobody’s fault. It’s about taking that inventory and saying, okay, what’s the story of my relationship with my child in the last five to 10 interactions with my co-parent in the last five to 10 interactions? Is that functional? Is that healthy? Is that supportive? Can I actually think about.
Robert Trout (23:57.627)
Yeah.
Paul (24:17.738)
and strategize how to reinvest in relationship while also holding boundaries and expectations, while also providing the structure and the scaffolding for a child who’s distressed. And those are the bigger conversations that are beyond this conversation and resource our other podcasts, call us, bring it. I mean, that’s the bigger work, right? And so,
Robert Trout (24:19.419)
That is all. All right.
Robert Trout (24:36.869)
Yeah. Yep.
Yep.
Paul (24:45.388)
What we’re really talking about is a very first step. And you might feel like you’re way down the path and you’re like, I’ve taken so many steps. And what we’re talking about is a first step when you press that reset button. When you take that objective lens of self and family system, when there’s an opportunity to actually pause and take a deep breath and create a little bit of space from the situation. Like it’s called cognitive diffusion.
Robert Trout (24:51.161)
Yes.
Thank you.
Robert Trout (24:59.909)
Yep.
Paul (25:15.416)
take a little bit of space from being so entrenched and enmeshed in it and say, that’s the story, not I am the story or this is what’s happening. that’s the story. And it’s such a minor tweak, but it creates some space for again, a little bit more objectivity and capacity to do something different.
Robert Trout (25:15.875)
you
Robert Trout (25:37.689)
Yes. I think my closing thought on this is just reflecting on the number of families that they have shown up to work with us and they’re already in therapeutic fatigue. The parents are, the kid is, like everyone’s, everyone’s just spinning. And I just want to normalize like, yeah, that’s what happens is that if you don’t get help and the right help, I’m going to say, and become aware of what’s really happened.
Paul (25:58.606)
Yeah, totally.
Robert Trout (26:08.719)
then eventually your tank will run dry. Because you don’t know what’s happening. You don’t recognize the patterns in the thing. it’s not like a blame thing. And I think you said this a few times, but I’ll just kind of finish on this. It’s just a recognition that you may not be in a state as an adult human being where you’ve looked at the human that’s in front of you.
and recognize that this is going to be a long-term, lifelong pattern, especially if they have a budding personality disorder or a neurological learning difference or something that makes their lives different than what has worked for you. So there’s that, OK, this is different. But if you’ve not taken that step back and recognize that this isn’t going to get fixed,
It’s about building resource and functionality into their life and yours. That’s what we’re talking about today. That’s the solution that families ignore because they want the magic pill. You know, so many kids get on medication because parents are like, take this pill and you’ll be better at this. And that’s not usually how that works. Like they might get a little better for a little while, but
Paul (27:13.614)
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Robert Trout (27:34.713)
It just keeps shifting and adapting and growing as they get older and their brain changes and, know, neurologically things shift or the medication starts, stops working because of tolerance issues or whatever it might be. Like medication, I think I’ve said this before, like medication isn’t a solution. It’s a tool. It’s a wonderful tool to use to find a place to stabilization. But while they’re in that stabilization is where you reinforce the patterns, lifestyle choices and things.
that make a long-term difference. There is no magic pill. If you’re tired and looking for the fast solution, then that step that Paul, you’re saying like step back and say, what can we do this one thing that would make it different and resource me first and then them as we start building our way out of this over time? Because that’s the truth.
The truth is this is the long game.
Paul (28:36.256)
Yeah. And my last parting thought is, you know, often when parents get to this degree of fatigue that we’re speaking about, there has been a breach of trust in perception of the kid and the parent dynamic. And to rebuild that is not going to happen from a singular moment. It’s going to happen by showing up continually in a different way. And so some people struggle to create the change because they don’t see it.
quote unquote, working the first time. So it will necessitate some effort. So again, yes, you’re fatigued. Yes, this is hard. Yes, this is something that you feel like you’ve been trying to wrap your head around it for ages. And now we’re saying more work. And what we’re really hoping for you to hear is that if we can create some perspective, we can make the change feel
Like it’s actually supporting love, compassion, connection, trust, a sense of safety, a development of a family culture that actually supports your long-term vision of who you are together. So taking the time to sit in that and just feel that for a second, like, my God, when you birthed your child, you had a vision. Let’s rework that. Let’s get back to that. let’s like figure out what it needs to…
shift to start to conceive of maybe even something bigger, better, creating the space for, you know, that next step.
Robert Trout (30:17.243)
Well, come find us at parenttrainers.com. Join one of our active interactive trainings. Join the community and ask questions and the support groups to get energy for you, hopefully. You’re not alone. So come get some help.
