Paul (00:03.337)
Hi listeners, welcome back to Parent Problems today. And if you’re a first time listener, we are happy to welcome you. And we hope to support you with education, insights, and actual steps in your parenting journey. With you today are my colleague, Rog Trout and myself, Paul Erdondo. And today we’ll be discussing a tender topic, a challenging topic, trauma. And of course, trauma can be many, many things.
But if we were to try and objectively look at a definition of trauma, we would say that it would be an experience or a witnessing that involves actual or threatened death, serious injury, or violence.
Some experts will also say it’s stressful events that can also significantly impair a person’s daily functioning. But trauma can come in many ways, shapes or forms. it’s one of those things where I had a clinician kind of absurdly say, hey, nobody gets out of this life alive without trauma. We lose people.
We have injuries. There’s so many different versions. yeah, Rob, would you add anything else to that definition?
Robert Trout (01:19.628)
think that summarizes kind of the basic understanding. I would say that not in the definition but in the understanding is that trauma is both physical and neurological. Sometimes we can see physically the result of trauma and very often that then ties in to neurological
Paul (01:31.912)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (01:39.65)
processes and kind of a developed pattern of behavior that trauma elicits. But sometimes trauma is not visible. We cannot know the level of impact that an event or occurrence has had on someone. And that to me is part of why it’s a delicate conversation. I mean, because a lot of people have that, I guess that reaction of you look fine.
Paul (01:44.061)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (01:59.497)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (02:07.04)
why would you not be functional or why can’t you meet me in this conversation or why why why and so that’s why there’s such a delicate kind of opening to this conversation.
Paul (02:19.301)
Yeah, yeah, as you said, sometimes it’s not visible, you know, and again, it could be a singular event.
Or could be reoccurring events, right? Like patterns of exposure or patterns of actual intensity that trigger reactivity, right? And I use that word trigger, and that is often a word that is used when we talk about what can be deemed trauma response, right? When something similar shows up in a future moment, we can have like a visceral reaction to it as if we’re reliving the trauma from the past.
Right? And so, you know, the impacts of trauma can be wide ranging as well. Right? So Rob and I are going to talk about in this conversation, the impacts on individuals and also the impacts on family systems and then work towards how do we support it? How do we meet it? Not only how can we help ourselves because as caregivers sometimes we’re experiencing trauma in the reflection of, you know, trying to support our loved ones. But let’s take a step back and think about
What is it that actually happens to an individual? What is it that they are experiencing internally? And I’m sure some of this will sound very familiar to all of you listeners out there. Of course there’s fear as an impact, right? I don’t feel safe. There can be sadness or grief. There can be irritability. There can be withdrawal.
Right, I don’t feel safe, so I need to kind of like lick my wounds or take a step back or kind of try and reassess what’s actually my new reality after having that experience. And with that, a sense of isolation can show up. A sense of loneliness can be also an impact. you know, lowered resilience is a result of these traumatic events. Lower capacity to manage stress, daily activities, conversations, interactions.
Paul (04:19.271)
Yeah, we would do that, Rob.
Robert Trout (04:22.11)
say that there is a recognition as well that trauma responses are never the same from person to person and then there’s also the understanding that it can vary at such a wide scale that we have to be very careful about saying this is this is what’s going to happen now that this event has occurred to you
I’ll just add that to what you just said, but just a reminder to the listener like there isn’t a, because this happened, this is what you’re going to now see. It’s literally an unpacking of the neurological impact for each individual and it is so varied. So I would put that out there.
Paul (05:06.926)
Right, right.
Yeah, definitely. You know, oftentimes with trauma, we, our nervous systems get activated in such a way that that becomes a normal state of being. We tend to refer to that as hypervigilance or sometimes we simplify it and say something like anxiety, right? Something that is about activating and, and, helping us assess, I safe? Am I safe? Right. And if you’ve heard me talk in past podcasts, I’ll often bring up this.
this recognition, if I don’t feel safe, I’m going to exhibit some version of control, safety or control, safety or control, safety or control. Every animal on the planet does it and humans are not exempt from that. You know, if we don’t feel safe, we either activate towards creating some version of control or trying to claim some safety and that could be pushing things away. It could be pulling ourselves back. It could be collapsing and trying to shut out the whatever that stimulus is.
Or it could be overwhelmed and collapsing, right? Hypo arousal. what Rob was saying earlier that there’s a neurological impact.
That is a very real thing. Trauma can rewire the brain. It can make us more anxious or we can brace more. We can kind of rush through things or rebel from things. can kind of maybe find that a maladaptive behavior like lying or impulsiveness or even active addiction can be a response or a reaction to something like trauma.
Paul (06:50.144)
It’s interesting to think about what are we doing when we’re trying to engage somebody through the lens of behavior, right? Because these might actually be responses or reactions to something that happened to them. Like for instance, is a kid who’s being bullied at school and then they come home and they do homework refusal or they…
are isolating themselves in their rooms or they shut their parents out, you know, and that’s just, of course, one instance. Yeah, what other things have shown up for you, Rob, in terms of, you know, the kind of behavioral front-facing images when underneath we actually then figure out, my goodness, this person’s actually been suffering from trauma.
Robert Trout (07:40.194)
Well, some of the most common that I run into with families is figuring out that the individual will react to nothing. Like the parents very often are the ones that are like, why are we in this fight? I don’t understand why it has to be at the level of conflict. So very often I’ll see trauma play out in a sense of I’m not gonna let.
Paul (07:59.876)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (08:05.768)
then remember this is neurological like it’s not usually a conscious thought it’s I’m not going to let us go to that conversation I’m going to distract distract distract to this to this because this fight is so much safer
than the conversation of going over here about maybe the events or the triggers that are a response to whatever the traumatic event was. So whatever the level, definitely comes through as conflict, either creation or hyper-focus on the individual to make sure that we stay in the avenues that are safe for them in that respect.
Paul (08:47.293)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (08:48.906)
Other things that are very common are situations where the kid will step into that isolation, where they’re refusing to get out of bed, or even more so, I’ve seen a lot of cases where the kid will go and they’ll actually maybe go to school.
but they don’t actually go to school. They leave the house and create some kind of safe haven for themselves where they go to a coffee shop or a friend’s house or sometimes just walk all day and they actually never make it to the destination. But it’s creating some kind of safety loop for themselves around it’s not safe to go there so I’m gonna do this but I also don’t want to fight. So there’s a lot of confusion that starts to come out in those actions and behaviors.
Paul (09:38.163)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (09:41.122)
Those would be the first ones that come to mind.
Paul (09:43.493)
Yeah, yeah. Oftentimes when somebody is experiencing that degree of hurt, the fear and the grief and maybe even the anger or rage show up. And sometimes it’s also shame and panic and despair, right? Like, my gosh, I don’t feel safe in the world. Or maybe it’s something like nobody’s protecting me. And then they push back on whoever should be. Right. And so
Sometimes we hear things like you don’t understand you don’t get it You can never understand. I mean that’s some language that you know, I’ve definitely heard or maybe I’ve even felt myself my own trauma response, right and so We we need to slow down Right whenever there is something happening With a loved one that feels like it’s coming out of the blue That’s an interesting
Robert Trout (10:22.828)
Yes. Yep.
Paul (10:39.956)
moment to pause and soften to whatever their experience is.
Robert Trout (10:45.964)
For me, I also have recognized a lot of situations that the kid makes a designation after the traumatic event or over time where they choose one parent who is safe and another that isn’t or that the grandparent is safe and the parents aren’t or whatever it might be. So it could be a rapid behavior shift. And suddenly you find yourself that you’re the one that they target to release emotional energy.
Paul (11:03.701)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (11:15.37)
and you think they hate you, and they might even say they hate you, but it’s not that at all. It’s usually the… they’ve found someone who can’t leave or is safe enough to take the wrath of the internal feeling. So sometimes there’s that designation as well.
Paul (11:19.498)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (11:36.32)
Right, and on the other end of that, there’s also folks who have such intense trauma that they look like they’re zoning out from the outside looking in. They can look like they are withdrawing to the point where their personality can have a dramatic shift. So.
Robert Trout (11:45.332)
Yes.
Paul (11:58.74)
understanding that trauma can, there’s often referred to as like little t-trauma and big t-trauma. I don’t feel like we need to get into that, but trauma is trauma. It impacts the neurology, it impacts the physiology, tension shows up in the body. And where does that go? Oftentimes it turns into thoughts, feelings, emotions, and
Yeah, creating that space to understand or being curious. Your dealer and many of our podcasts and many of our talks and our trainings, be curious, slow down, be curious, be patient, stop taking it so personally, ask them what’s going on for them and create that space. So let’s shift towards the impact on family systems.
Right? This can be where more than one individual in the family system is experiencing trauma. And maybe it’s because of a dynamic in the family system. Right? Again, fear, sadness, irritability, resentment, sensitivity, again, withdrawal or over engagement. And again, this is an illustration of lower resilience, lower capacity.
to manage stress. Yeah, so I’ll ask you the same question, Rob. What do you see in terms of behaviors that could show up in family systems when trauma is something that’s alive and present?
Robert Trout (13:32.556)
Yep. Well, two things immediately. One, I know we’ve talked a little bit already. I gave some examples of like becoming targeted, right? Mom will save dad is not, know, examples. But taking it deeper than that in family systems work is understanding that when one person struggles, the system struggles because everyone in the system has to adjust.
their skill sets need to develop and they need to figure out who’s impacting who in what way. So when a trauma occurs to one person, it actually is trauma to the whole family system. And I know in our trainings and processes, we bring up, I’m gonna say most professionals bring up the idea of vicarious trauma.
Paul (14:10.54)
Yes.
Paul (14:17.699)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (14:18.202)
Trauma leading into a place where you know if mom becomes the person that is constantly beat upon either physically or emotionally in the family system by a child has been traumatized Then that mother eventually develops their own Neurological responses that vicarious trauma of being in a system with someone that is mistreating them
And that’s just one example could be any member of the family siblings or fathers. It doesn’t matter I Do want to step back though because you’ve now mentioned resilience twice and I feel like we do need to talk about that In this conversation trauma to understand that resilience in a family system
Paul (14:49.828)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (14:57.188)
Sure.
Robert Trout (15:03.874)
is kind of looked upon in two pieces. One is the individual resilience in the sense that they went through an event. And that’s what’s so interesting about Big T Little T as a concept is that what that really is speaking to is the person’s ability to bounce back neurologically in an event. So if two people in a family go through the same trauma, such as a car crash, you know, just using a metaphoric kind of process.
What’s interesting is that the trauma upon the two people is different. It’s not even a question. One person might be like, we got in a car accident and I broke my arm and tomorrow I’m going to school. Whereas the other person, individual will refuse to get out of bed because now the world, the outside world is unsafe. Resilience speaks to that understanding that one person had a higher…
Paul (15:36.443)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (15:57.122)
threshold, a higher level of resilience to bounce back to quote-unquote normal life and expectation. And the other person had a lower level and has been more a big T, right? So a big T, they have been higher impact upon their neurological framework. So now they have to reorient to a world that doesn’t make complete sense to them.
So there’s that piece that I just want to make sure everyone that’s listening understands when we’re talking about resilience and big T and little t. Going back into the family systems and trauma and behavior, very often that’s where we get the call from a parent that’s like, everything’s falling apart, nothing’s working. That type of language is really centered on the idea that…
there’s most likely been some form of progressive or highly impactful trauma that has changed the dynamic within the whole family system. So behaviorally, we’re witnessing one person starting to exert control and that can be through sadness, empathy, depression, suicidality. So many things develop as actions.
the source of trauma that are now being tested in the family system to find out who will show up for me when I think I’m gonna kill myself who you know what what will they do if I run away what will they like it’s really endless to the action and behavior from the trauma as far as coming up with examples it literally can be anything but then just looking at the impact
Now we’re starting to see the reactions of every other member. Siblings, parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, whoever’s involved. That’s what we’re really trying to measure there when we’re looking at the impact of trauma on the family system is are they reacting?
Robert Trout (17:57.55)
Or is the family at a place that they have a level of understanding that things need to change and they’re doing it consciously and through development of skill and planning to kind of wrap around and support this person that has been traumatized. So if you’re stepping into support, we see far less reactionary behavior and impact then on the family system in that case.
Paul (18:21.997)
Mm-hmm, yeah. And I think this is also a good time to insert into the conversation that sometimes, often times…
Parents have the trauma that they, from their own childhood, that they’re bringing into the family system, right? And that can impact communication. That can impact co-regulation, the ability to be calm with one another in a state of stress. The ability for the parent to calm their child can be diminished if their trauma shows up, creating that moment of objectivity for the parent to do some self-assessment.
Robert Trout (18:35.554)
Yes.
Paul (19:01.251)
Right? What is it that I am bringing to the table just as much as what’s happening for my child if they experience an event. Right? And so creating that opportunity to think not only about what’s happening for your child and how are they showing up and what’s changed in their behavior, but you know, being clear about your impact on your family as well. Rob, you wanted to say something?
Robert Trout (19:23.67)
Yeah, I just wanted to add to that because I’ve seen this reaction from so many parents when we step into this conversation about trauma is the parent will be like, I wasn’t traumatized as a kid. I had a great childhood. My parents did a good job. You know, whatever.
Paul (19:30.875)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (19:39.936)
I just want to make sure that any parent listening to this were not saying you were traumatized. Not necessarily. But even if you weren’t traumatized, if there wasn’t actions and events that guided to the emotional state that you carry with you now as an adult, you did develop reactions and processes within your original family. So may not be trauma. It could be just you learn to be a parent by watching your parents.
Paul (19:44.591)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (20:09.819)
You
Robert Trout (20:10.79)
What worked for you even if you believe it worked for you and they did a good job We just want to be careful because what worked for you and what you’re trying with your child May not work for them, especially if there’s now neurological trauma And process for your child. The way you were raised is a part of the building the assessment and understanding of
I can’t speak it like this. can’t stand like this. can’t be this aggressive or non-aggressive. There’s so much to be unpacked there, but it may not be categorized in your mind as trauma, and that’s okay. It’s still your structure for how you’re showing up.
Paul (20:56.461)
Agreed. Yeah. So how do we show up, right, in the face of a loved one in a traumatic experience or recovering from a traumatic experience or reliving a traumatic experience or re-experiencing a traumatic experience? What are your thoughts Rob? What’s the first thing?
Robert Trout (21:16.63)
The first thing always is recognizing that the person you’re interacting with is different. Even to the point that sometimes I’ve had to take families all the way into a process of saying the child you had is metaphorically dead.
Paul (21:25.509)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (21:37.612)
conversations and how they showed up and how they’re interacted with you etc that person has been so significantly impacted that they will never be and I need to say that slowly they may never be what they were ever again so there is step one for me ties into a parent saying you’re different and I need to get to know the new you so I can adjust
language and our interventions and our strategies and process to be a parent to you. And we’ll talk a little later maybe about this, but that is grief. That’s why sometimes you have to take it to that metaphor of that child no longer exists. They’re gone. What we have now is this new person that needs a new interaction from you and a new understanding of who they’re going to be.
Paul (22:18.959)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (22:36.438)
because of what just happened to them. I always would start there.
Paul (22:39.728)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and what I would add to that is cultivate patience because
As you were saying Rob earlier about the the broken arm some folks can show right back up the next day Some folks can’t get out of bed, you know, and so being able to be patient with somebody in their process It’s not your process. It’s their process right and when it comes to this idea of support it is about curiosity compassion and again patience as well as Who else can support them besides just you?
You know, get on the same page with your co-parent, co-caregivers. You know, if it is a single individual in the family system, talk to the siblings, other family members, create an understanding of, okay, this is new, this is what I’m seeing, let’s create some space, right? Revisit expectations.
refine expectations about how you’re going to be together, whether it’s communication, chores, how you all schedule out your days, create the clarity of how you’re going to meet the next moment. And of course, we in our field, we talk about wraparound care quite often. And this could include therapy, mentorship, processing groups.
Paul (24:12.301)
opportunities for that person who is trying to heal the trauma to have perspective from outside the family system to support them in their own individuation process, their own healing process. What else would you add to that, Rob?
Robert Trout (24:28.846)
quick note on what you just said for the parent that’s listening very often it comes to that if you don’t understand what they’re going through you don’t have a trauma history that allows for at least a minimal level of empathy and understanding that is the cue for seeking external help like just just hear that as a parent to a parent like just
Paul (24:37.083)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (24:50.277)
Certainly.
Robert Trout (24:55.486)
Understand that if it’s not you it has to be someone else that that would be my first thought the the second piece really steps into an understanding that if You’re going to work with your child after a traumatic event and you’re building empathy and understanding and your skill to intervene and help them short term and long term There’s that understanding of saying
I have to let go of my expectation that anything is going to look a certain way. And this comes down into really practical things like having a parent understand that if a child’s experienced a major trauma at school they might need to shift to a home school or a group school program or go to boarding school or so many options.
Paul (25:27.879)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (25:47.67)
but it’s really shifting out of the, it’s gotta be this one way, you know, because that’s how I was raised or it’s the only thing I see is available. So it’s the curiosity to open up to the practical things all the way up to the, okay, now I need to understand that they need to communicate in a brand new way that I don’t know how to do. So I’m gonna go take a class to learn how to do that, right? So.
Paul (25:59.558)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (26:13.562)
curiosity is really the the stepping stone here but not just the I’d like you to get better it’s not about getting better very often the the process is about how can we change the container and the environment and the structure like you said of like we’re gonna do it like this you’ll go to school like this you’ll do this etc they need that
Structure and container to feel safe and have the space to do their healing work You need to be the one that’s flexible to the options
Paul (26:46.803)
Mm-hmm.
Right. Yeah. And you’ve probably heard, you know, us talk in the past about three different sort of buckets in terms of focal points in the conversation of how does somebody do healing work? one of them is, you know, skill building.
How can they work with that trauma internally? What are the things that they can empower themselves to do? It could be something as simple as taking deep breaths. It could be taking a shower in kind of the cold water, washing away whatever they experience is, going and jumping in a pool, going for a run, talking to somebody, but really empowering them to recognize that there’s choice in their experience as much as they can possibly manage in that moment. The second aspect is supports, and that’s what we were just talking about.
about who can they turn to when maybe they can’t access that internal compass or create space for them to feel empowered. Maybe they aren’t as resilient or they’re higher up on that scale and that traumatic response and they can’t even remember the thing that helped them in the past. So that second…
Bucket is about who do they turn to? Make a list, have the conversation with them. It could be friends, could be family, it could be mentors, it could be therapists, it could be school counselors, it could be teachers, it could be coaches, mentors obviously. So create the opportunity for them to feel supported and held in safety.
Paul (28:16.169)
And then the third aspect are what are the environments? Robbie, you were just talking about school environments. If that’s the source of the trauma, maybe that’s a place where they should not return to. Or if they do make sure that they are supported within that environment, talk to the school, get them on board, create an understanding so that your son or your daughter can enter back into that environment with a sense of safety. So creating environments of healing, or at least trying to cultivate environments.
of healing and this again starts in your home. So coming back to that patience, that willingness, that acceptance, and again vicarious trauma is a very real thing, right? And sometimes
the child isn’t having a traumatic experience, but the parent is in response to their child’s behavior patterns. We see this often with parents who have kids who are ASD.
The kid’s behaviors are so exhausting and sometimes seemingly out of the blue and can be physical in certain moments that parents are sitting in trying to make sense of it all. After fending off a child, then they have to hold their child and love their child 10 minutes later. And that’s a very confusing, disorienting experience, or it can be.
So that experience of, you know, again, acknowledging your own experience, your own truth while holding the truth of your your children, that’s challenging and exhausting. And again, we would encourage seeking support.
Robert Trout (30:05.358)
support for both. be absolutely crystal clear to the listener, it’s not just building a community of support around the kid. Yes, that is necessary and very often the answer is a larger community not a smaller one.
Paul (30:07.178)
Mm-hmm, certainly.
Paul (30:15.959)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (30:20.919)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (30:21.002)
to help them develop resilience and come through the process of learning through experiential education and processes with peers and adults who are safe and kind of working through that process. There’s also the very real reality that you as parents cannot just look, if you’re partnered, you can’t just look at your partner and say, we got this.
Paul (30:46.198)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (30:47.178)
that is a recipe for relational disaster and for the family system to struggle at a such a higher level than necessary. It’s really about bringing in your closest friends and therapists and whoever else like whatever you can find to
Paul (30:55.023)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (31:05.836)
Create the practices that support you as an individual within your family system. And then also making sure you give space for the co-parent or grandparent or co-giver or et cetera. Make sure that you’re giving them the space and understanding that they need to go take care of themselves too. It is literally the expansion of the system.
Paul (31:23.503)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (31:29.278)
Sets the tone for success when it comes to working with someone through a traumatic event to become I always say to reach the level of function That you want not just to live together But to the hey you can go out in the world and you feel safe enough to practice and develop your own personality and do all the things that You’re supposed to do as far as a normative developmental process sometimes
they’ll hit roadblocks along the way. So it’s also watching for that. But if you’re taking care of yourself and expanded your own caregiving and process for you in your, I’m gonna say parental or co-giving situation, then you’re gonna be able to handle those roadblocks. If you’re just running your tank dry, metaphorically, you’re going to crash.
If you’re expecting them to get better, I’m going say magically or quickly, you need to pace yourself for the long game and find support for them and for you.
Paul (32:39.704)
It’s a roller coaster, you know, you might actually think they’re beyond it and then it creeps back up in another moment because they were re-triggered or they had a similar experience. And this can happen months down the line and even years, know, trauma is, it’s a neurological pattern due to a reaction or a lack of safety. Right. And so we need to be supportive or slow down enough to try and create an understanding.
and
Yeah, I feel like we should probably end the conversation there, right? And if you have any other questions specifically about your family system or your own personal experience or supports, please reach out to us and let us know. And of course, send us any topics that you’d like us to speak to for future podcasts. And thank you for joining us.
