Robert Trout (00:01.581)
Welcome to the Parent Problems Today podcast. Today you’re joined by myself, Robert Trout, and Paul Arredondo from the Parent Trainers team. And today’s episode’s kind of straightforward. At least it usually starts out that way until we really get into it. Because today we’re going to step onto a conversation that happens with a lot of parents, but specifically I had a mother this week. And Paul, what we’re going to get into is kinds of consequences. And specifically,
At least where we’re gonna start is the basic understanding of natural consequences and I guess I’ll kick off for the listener that when we talk about consequences there are two basic types until you get into the specifics and that is natural consequences and by definition natural consequences are events or Actionable items that come up in someone’s life that are a direct
natural result of a decision that they’ve made. Meaning that someone didn’t have to make something happen to them for them to realize that something had gone wrong or right. It’s just the natural flow of you do this, this happens because we’re human and live with Mother Nature and you know that that’s how life works. The second category of consequence then is contrived consequence. And what this means is that
Paul (01:02.03)
Okay.
Robert Trout (01:28.515)
There has been an action or a decision and usually it comes down to human kind of policies at this point of social convention, religious doctrine, different family belief systems, things like that. That’s where contrived comes in because they’re like, well, we, the family, the parents, the church, the community, the world, we don’t want you to do what you just did.
Paul (01:42.094)
So,
Robert Trout (01:57.913)
So there is a contrived or designed consequence from these people reinforcing the behavior that they wish to have happen to kind of stop whatever has happened or to make what happened become permanent because they want you to keep down the line that you’re doing. And that’s important to understand about consequences. A lot of people have a negative commentation. Consequence means punishment.
That’s absolutely not true. So if you’re listening to this, that kind of needs to be step one is consequence is not a bad thing. Consequence is the action or reaction to decisions or actions and behaviors that someone is living through their life or deciding as they go through their life. And those are good and bad. It’s just literally the thing that happens because of the thing you said or did.
That’s the consequence structure that we’re kind of looking at there. So Paul, I’ll pass it to you. What comes up for you with the families we work with and with parents that are looking at kind of working with teens, tweens, and young adults when it comes down to consequences? What are the first thoughts that just come up for you?
Paul (03:12.778)
I think that as, we talked about natural consequences and, you know, these contrived consequences, I think there is also a need to make sure that they’re measured no matter what they are. Right. Make sure they actually fit the bill. Right. If it’s a first time that they lied to you, you’re not going to ground them for a month. Right. Being a contrived consequence. So, you know, having
the measured understanding of what is actually appropriate developmentally and age and, you know, is this the first time or the fourth time that they’ve had this behavior and being able to meet that moment and understand how to, for lack of a better way of saying it, ramp up the tone of the conversation. Let them know that you’re serious about, hey, this needs to change, this needs to stop, this is inappropriate.
We need to have another conversation about this and you need to truly understand. So those are my immediate thoughts.
Robert Trout (04:16.697)
Yep. Well, I want to step into a process that parents don’t understand sometimes around consequences is parents very often will focus on the punishment aspect. The, well, you did this, so now this is going to happen to you. But parents often forget that when you sit the child down, when you sit the teenager down to have the conversation about what they’ve done wrong,
For most teenagers, they consider that conversation a part of the consequence. Right? And sometimes parents totally miss that. They’re like, no, we’re gonna have this big discussion about what you just did wrong, and then the consequence is gonna happen. But the truth is, is for most humans, which starts with being caught in the behavior or action,
Paul (04:51.78)
Certainly.
Uh-huh. Right.
Robert Trout (05:13.411)
And then the consequence is the entirety of the experience that happens after that fact. Because for a lot of kids, and we’ve worked with lot of teenagers, I know we’ve heard a lot of them be like, my God, I have to listen to this again. Because this is not the first time they’ve broken a rule or gone through a consequence sequence with the parents. And there’s this whole aspect where the parents are like,
Well, first I’m going to really let you know what you did wrong and then you’re going to go through this consequence. And for the parent, they forget that this impacts their emotional connection and relationship connection with the kid. Because if you make a consequence too long, for example, or too outside the box, where it’s just unreasonable in the reaction to the behavior,
Paul (05:54.606)
huh.
Robert Trout (06:10.637)
that’s when you start running into family system problems because the kids like, no, I’m done. I’m not even going to sit and listen to this conversation based on what I just did. Now I’m going to start a whole new category of behaviors because they’ve heard this dad speech 10,000 times and they’re done. So very often parents miss that it’s starting to spin out of control in multiple directions from
different actions and behaviors on both sides. Thoughts on that?
Paul (06:45.71)
Yeah, I’ll even take that a step further Rob in the recognition that a lot of kids have already experienced a consequence before they even have the conversation with their mom or dad right like I have a very prime example of a just three days ago a kid came home from summer camp and the mom was telling me my god my kid my daughter bullied another girl and So when we got in the car, I tried to tell her what was going on
how that’s inappropriate, and then it turned into this big blow up. Right? And so, you know, of course, the way the mom learned about what happened with the daughter was from a camp counselor. The camp counselor had already sat her down and had a discussion with her about appropriate behavior. And of course, her daughter was embarrassed, her daughter was sad, her daughter was struggling with, like, the reflection of her behavior, and then the mom piles on.
Robert Trout (07:41.764)
Yes.
Paul (07:42.346)
And what the mom also said was that this was very out of character for my daughter. So I was really frustrated and confused. And I said, OK, you need to deal with that first before you then have a conversation with your daughter, because that’s your stuff, right? If this is out of character, OK, be curious. And so there’s these missed opportunities that I think, again, parents feel like
I need to come in and teach them a lesson and it’s like, whoa, I think they’ve already learned some stuff. Be curious about that first. And if they are not remorseful, then you probably need to have another conversation. Then there’s probably a need to, you know, again, think about further consequence or really stepping into making the point feel a little bit more pronounced or understood.
Robert Trout (08:17.379)
Yes.
Robert Trout (08:32.451)
Yes. Yeah, and in a normal circumstance, what people miss is that if a natural consequence has already occurred, like the kid at camp, they worked it out at camp. The camp counselor put in the discussion and probably some kind of consequence. And that’s the natural, like, this happened, this happened, and now it should be done. The issue is when you start piling.
Paul (08:46.926)
huh.
Robert Trout (09:02.391)
You just use that word, so I’m just going to use it because it’s a great metaphor of, now I’m going to really make sure she understands that she did something wrong versus the, hey, what happened? What’d you learn? Great. We can move on. I don’t have to do anything in this. And that over piling on is going to really impact your relationship because to the kid, this thing’s already over.
Paul (09:02.739)
Yep.
Paul (09:09.152)
All right.
Paul (09:20.494)
Over parenting. Yeah.
Robert Trout (09:30.849)
And that’s okay. It’s okay for these instances to be gone in the past because if you try to pile on, at least for me, I see two reactions. One is the kid starts either internalize over time and they become the bad kid, right? Or you see on the other side of it where they start to become defensive and that’s where they’re fighting for any self-worth they can hold on to over time because
Paul (09:51.96)
Right.
Robert Trout (09:58.019)
The kid at the camp was on them. The counselor was on them. Now mom’s on them. And then I’m going to get home and dad will be on them. And then it just like, okay, hold on, hold on. We’ve got to let things settle in this process. And, and I think let’s, let’s use that to kind of jump backwards in this conversation back to the kind of understanding consequence or the kinds of consequence in this, because a natural consequence
Paul (10:11.624)
Right.
Robert Trout (10:28.219)
is really delicate in today’s modern world. So I do want to touch on that. Let’s look at that from the standpoint of, at least from our background, you you take kids camping, right? And the kid decides to leave their clothes outside of the tent while you go out on a short day hike or something, and it rains. The natural consequence to that
is that all the clothes are wet and the child has to figure out like, okay, I decided this, there is a result that it’s wet and now I have to problem solve it. So the consequence becomes starting a fire and drying the clothes and spending all of their time trying to get back to a place of equilibrium, which is important in this conversation because natural consequences create equilibrium because you have to solve for it.
Paul (10:57.198)
huh.
Robert Trout (11:26.265)
What do got to that?
Paul (11:27.583)
Yeah, let’s stick with, I want to go back to the example of the girl who comes home from the camp. Her natural consequence is she has to go back to the camp the next day. She actually has to manage those relationships. She has to see that counselor. She has to do the repair work. And then she has to actually show up in relationship. And those are the bigger lessons that any young person needs to learn is like, how do I show back up? How do I do repair?
Robert Trout (11:38.798)
Yes.
Paul (11:56.46)
because that’s actually the kind of final turn of consequence is creating a moment of healing, a moment of retribution, a moment of stepping back in.
Robert Trout (12:08.961)
Absolutely. Yeah, and that’s the equalization the normal flow of life and that’s where as a parent What we’re talking about today is understanding that you don’t have to do anything It’s a good idea to just bring it up like hey what happened tell me what you learned I’m glad you learned something. Let’s go get ice cream
Paul (12:14.273)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (12:20.418)
Right.
Paul (12:30.9)
Yeah, and what are going to do next time differently?
Robert Trout (12:33.709)
Yeah, if that’s appropriate, because sometimes that can be a trigger too. So it’s know your kid. There’s a certain end point in the conversation, right? So know your kid, know the end point and take it as far as you can in the role that you have with the report you have in your role as mom, dad or other in that circumstance, right?
Paul (12:36.454)
huh.
Paul (12:40.194)
course.
Yeah, definitely.
Robert Trout (12:57.379)
But you play a role, but you’re not the ultimate like I’m going to really make sure they got this. It’s like let them go back to camp the next day and make the same mistake. That’s OK because they’re going to test where the boundaries and lines are. And that’s a natural order of things. I mean some of the most devastating things I can use this instance as a circumstance would be where parents say, well, you’re not going back to that camp.
Paul (13:17.154)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (13:27.181)
And very often that’s actually tied to embarrassment for the parent, not actually for the kid and things like that. So parents will make the mistake of removing kids from the environment that they can test and learn in things like that, where it’s like, okay, you’re removing natural consequence and taking this into contrived. You’re trying to be like the overlord of like you, you can’t embarrass this family or me, or you know, you’re, you’re such a bad kid or
Paul (13:39.607)
Right,
Robert Trout (13:56.323)
whatever is being reinforced verbally or behaviorally within the family system. So it’s a basic understanding for any parent that if your kid does something like this circumstance, you just let the natural world take care of it. Now you be there to mentor, answer questions, and take it as far as you can, but natural consequences are things that you really don’t have to participate in very heavily.
Paul (13:57.838)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (14:25.677)
You really don’t. You’re just going to be learned.
Paul (14:29.679)
And I would let’s give another example of what I like to think of as a natural consequence, but some parents are very hard pressed to allow the space for it is if your kid doesn’t complete their homework assignment or they don’t turn in an assignment or maybe they’re on the verge of failing a class, let it happen. Let them experience that rather than drag them across the finish line, sit next to them and get their homework done, you know, and because
Then you’re again moving into a contrived consequence and you are the consequence. And then that impacts your relationship. And I’m not saying don’t support them, get them a tutor, talk to the school. Those are consequences. Those are ways to support them in taking a good next step. So what are the supportive consequences? Not just the punishment, but what is it gonna get them to that next step of understanding of these are my priorities. This is how I should manage my time. This is what I need to accomplish.
in order to stay in good stead with X, and Z.
Robert Trout (15:30.819)
Yep. Well, let’s talk about that because when we talk about natural consequences in the modern world, most of the time your kids not leaving stuff on the front lawn is getting rained on, right? Like what we’re talking about here is something like homework. And then it is the letting go of the results in that as the parent, because yes, they don’t turn in the homework. They get a failing grade. It impacts their grades. You’re hoping that
Paul (15:42.26)
Exactly that.
huh.
Robert Trout (15:58.165)
you don’t have to be the one making them feel bad about that grade not being good. It’s that they’re working towards a goal. And sometimes this does take a little bit of implementation in the sense of like, well, you you are working towards getting three A’s and two B’s. And the agreement we made at the beginning of the school years, if you can hit this mark, you get this computer you wanted or skateboard you wanted or whatever it was. Like the kid has a goal they’re working towards.
Paul (15:59.928)
Okay.
Robert Trout (16:26.831)
And that’s in a reward system. Sometimes that doesn’t work for kids. I’m just giving an example, one example. So it’s just recognizing that kids are working towards something that they can lose. If they can lose something, it impacts how they feel. And that’s what we’re really looking for when it comes to natural consequences. And if you’re a parent trying to follow natural consequences in this modern world, there is some participation, but it’s got to stay in the same category.
Paul (16:32.367)
Right.
Robert Trout (16:56.643)
And that’s where the natural comes in. And you just gave a great example. You’re failing this class. The consequence to that isn’t you’re grounded for the next six months. The consequence of that is you’re going to start working with a tutor three days a week. And some parents are like, well, you know, that’s not a consequence. And it’s like, have you ever been like a teenager? Do you want to sit and do schoolwork outside of school for three hours a week? Like, no, you don’t. So.
Paul (16:59.214)
Okay.
Robert Trout (17:26.613)
It’s solving, so it’s problem solving and focused and directly, and this is super important, directly tied to the action or behavior. When we move away from this, and I think this is a good transition, we can jump back and forth after this, but let’s move towards contrived consequence to really understand this because contrived consequence is where a lot of people get lost and it very often is very
Paul (17:32.544)
Sure.
Robert Trout (17:56.143)
punishment focused and I’m not saying this is completely negative there are some kids that need some level of like They’re really not getting this or feeling this or they just don’t care and contrived consequence starts to become something that Systems start putting into place like for example if they’re arrested the juvie system is contrived it just it is the legal system there, so it’s a
Paul (17:56.686)
Okay.
Robert Trout (18:23.819)
Natural consequence to get into the system, but once they’re in very often it’s contrived consequences about everything that’s happening for them Just one example, but when it comes to the parents and contrived. This is where we see really non focused reaction Consequences the you’re grounded for six months. You’re not going anywhere. I’m taking your car forever You know, whatever it might be depending on their age and consequence of that
Paul (18:41.335)
Yes.
Robert Trout (18:53.721)
But yeah, it’s really important to understand that natural consequences are things you really don’t have to think much about because you just have to keep it in the same category versus contrived, which is very much a, I’m going to make you feel this. Thoughts on that?
Paul (19:11.051)
Yeah, and that could be a little slippery. And I’ll give an example. Because when it comes to like a phone or technology, right? And let’s go, let’s stick with the homework example. You know, some
Robert Trout (19:13.721)
Baring.
Paul (19:23.79)
Parents will actually say it’s actually very natural if the phone is the thing that’s getting in the way, then that’s a natural consequence. I’m gonna take the phone away so there’s no distraction and then you can focus on your schoolwork. Makes sense. But if you start taking the phone away for them getting an argument with you, or you start taking the phone away from them because they are
fighting with their sister, that’s when we’re talking about contrived consequences and how it doesn’t match the moment. And so being able to understand that sometimes with some kids, the phone is maybe the only leverage point or that’s where it’s been reduced down to. And that’s where the parents truly believe, which then again, with the support of somebody like myself or Rob, we have that bigger conversation of like, okay, let’s actually redefine consequences.
because you’ve pigeonholed yourself into the phone’s the only way to make my kid pay attention. And so, you know, yeah, I’ll pause there, Rob, do you want to add to that?
Robert Trout (20:32.399)
Yeah, well, it’s important that people understand that we’re not saying don’t do this. It’s not what this conversation is. It’s more of an understanding that there are two directions this can go. Excuse me, this can go. And this is, again, in some aspect about assessing where your child’s at. If a child is in a place where natural consequences are impactful and educational, then you’re really on the lower end of mental and behavioral health and kind of aspect of this kid
Paul (20:52.366)
percent.
Robert Trout (21:02.115)
being in what we call normal capacity of learning, right? And this is emotional learning and life learning. Like this is just basic, how do we live in society and groups and interact with other humans and all of these things. Contrived consequences really start to play a major role when you do get into those scenarios where it’s like, okay, something is happening here. And very often that’s where parents really miss it.
Paul (21:15.535)
huh. Yep.
Robert Trout (21:29.273)
They’re like, my God, all they care about is the phone. And that to me is just like, whoa, hold on. If that’s true, there’s an anxiety disorder, a depressive episode, like there’s something diagnosable to happen here that like y’all really need to get a hold on. So we know that the strategies and interventions and processes that are put in place are going to be impactful and educational.
Paul (21:29.51)
Yeah.
Paul (21:37.198)
Summon balance. Yeah.
Robert Trout (21:58.595)
Lead to them having more control as they launch into adulthood. Hopefully right as they get through this So if you’re a parent that you’re hearing this and you’re like, my god The only thing that works is my kid like taking the technology away. That’s a red flag that that’s a like hey, there’s something deeper here and you know, it may be developed over time and that’s normal and
Paul (22:03.608)
You
Paul (22:08.814)
Uh-huh.
Robert Trout (22:25.773)
Be aware that that’s where this really gets to is if you’re in a place where the consequences are contrived Because those the only thing that can work then your strategies need to shift for the long term Maybe not the short term but the long term for absolutely sure to get them from where they are to where they need to be to function on their own Behaviorally in relationship and with work and money and all these things that start to happen as your kids become adults
Paul (22:38.66)
huh. Yeah, I think you nailed it, Rob. I just want to reinforce the idea of assessment, you know, and of course we look at it through a mental health lens and there’s also just the recognition. I hate using it. We’re just.
There’s also the recognition that people go through moments of transition, moments of struggle, moments of change in life that can initiate different behavior patterns, can instigate change in what we might perceive as personality shifts. And even the idea of school ending and then all of a sudden their child’s on a bunch of technology or a…
a young man, 15 year old boy breaks up with his girlfriend and he had been very codependent and then all of sudden all he is is on his phone. And so there’s things to take a step back and go, okay, my son’s in distress, my daughter is struggling. There’s something below this behavior pattern that is worth acknowledging and validating and trying to connect with my child. And so again, it comes back to being measured.
Am I actually seeing the full picture before I step in with a consequence? And I want to actually, I think this is a good point to say, and you hinted at it Rob, which is you don’t need to get the consequence immediately. Having a reactive consequence is actually inappropriate and it doesn’t serve your child nor your relationship. And in fact, oftentimes it’s even more impactful just as you were saying, Rob, like a kid sitting with the fact that they did something wrong. And so to…
put that in a concrete example is you see your child or you pick up your child or all of sudden you’re starting to feel the bubbling nature of your anxiety or your fear, your anger, frustration, confusion. That’s not the moment to give the consequence. You say, hey, that’s inappropriate. That’s not what we do. That’s something that we’re gonna need to talk about in a little bit. I need to go talk to your mom and she and I are gonna have a conversation and we’re gonna come back and tell you like,
Paul (25:00.61)
what we’re gonna be doing about that. And being able to take that time away from your child gives your child an opportunity to sit in the recognition that they did something that’s out of bounds or out of the boundaries or expectations. And that is a consequence. Sitting in that level of discomfort actually is a challenge. It can promote change, it can promote growth because they’re actually sitting in their discomfort.
And that’s something that gets ripped away from them when we immediately give a consequence because then they just get to be mad about the consequence. They’re no longer thinking about the thing they did wrong. Now they’re thinking about the thing that got taken away from them, especially if it’s contrived. So then there’s like, they’re in this lock torn challenge with their parent or their caregiver when in actuality they should be sitting with themselves.
the lessons lost. And so being able to slow yourselves down as parents, as caregivers, you know, basically the holders of the container and step away, take some deep breaths and maybe talk to your partner and go, do you believe we’re in this moment right now? What he said or he did, my goodness, I just wanted to, and okay, now what are we gonna do about it?
Robert Trout (26:16.247)
Yep.
Robert Trout (26:24.932)
Yes.
Paul (26:25.76)
Okay, this is the first time or man, this is not the first time and all right, what did we do last time? And okay, what do we feel like is appropriate? And how do we like step into having the conversation so that he truly learns in this moment?
Robert Trout (26:39.491)
Yes. Yep. So I feel like we’re going to jump into a lot of different other conversation pieces unless we start to wrap this up, because I think for this episode, we just wanted to give an outline of understanding kind of the spectrum of consequence. And it’s really just two main categories. But it’s for assessment, and it’s for understanding the skill within it. So my closing thoughts on this is
First of all, recognize that the natural side of this is what the goal is. If you can remain on the natural, it’s so much easier to maintain your relationship with the person because it’s just nature. It’s the world, it’s culture, it’s not just you. It’s everybody playing this part that leads into the education and growth and process. the more you can lean into natural consequences, the better. Including…
Paul (27:22.104)
Uh-huh.
Robert Trout (27:33.229)
and this is my kind of closing thought is that if you’re in contrived and I’m going to use the example of the phone and you’re like, well, I’m going to take the phone away. I’ve run into a lot of parents that are like, well, that’s all I did. I took the phone away for three weeks or a month or whatever. And it’s like, okay, but what did they like have to do that would reinforce learning from what happened? And that’s where parents got lost.
is they thought the consequence was the phone was gone. And I think it’s really important to understand that if natural was the goal and you’re in contrived, then you still need to weave the natural over to the contrived consequence. So if you took the phone away, this is just one example, I highly encourage every parent to say, okay, I’m taking it away for two weeks or a week or whatever. It doesn’t matter what timeline you might think you’re putting on it.
But I always want you to encourage and you get it back after that week and After you’ve problem-solved the behavior that led to me doing this Don’t just leave it on the phone that gives the phone so much power and Meaning and like you’re gonna start seeing a lot of things. I mean we see so many kids now. It’s like tech addiction
Paul (28:39.854)
And.
Robert Trout (28:56.323)
When in reality is just that that tech became the most important thing in their life. And it was reinforced very often by consequences leading up to the events that the family’s dealing with now. So it’s not just take away this thing. And this is just one example. So if you’re a parent and you’re like, well, that’s not exactly what I do. It’s like, great. Then talk to someone like us and get some like, okay, how do we build this for you and what you’re doing? But in this example, it’s you get it back after a week.
Paul (29:10.062)
Right.
Robert Trout (29:26.465)
and after you’ve earned this much money or you’ve Painted that wall that was destroyed or your you like help your brother and sister with their homework for a week Or you whatever it whatever it is, right? Like it’s tied to The natural element of the behavior that led to you as a parent saying great taking your friend away again Right. Hi these worlds together if you want to see ultimate results there. That’s my closing
Paul, what do you got for us?
Paul (29:57.944)
I think he nailed it. mean, quite honestly, what comes up for me is in order to be able to do this, takes
Robert Trout (29:59.279)
Good.
Paul (30:06.606)
pausing and managing your reactivity because what this takes is actually responding to your child, not reacting to your child. So if you notice your chest is tight, your throat is tight, you’re struggling in the moment, take a break to then come back with some clarity and some understanding of how to appropriately meet that moment and meet your child.
Robert Trout (30:25.337)
Absolutely. Alright, well as always come find us at parenttrainers.com. Sign up for one of our trainings and get some coaching around what’s going on for you specifically and your family. And yeah, we look forward to seeing you in the community and supporting everyone’s unique situations and kind of say experiences that they’re having with their kids. We’ll see you there.
