Part 1
Robert Trout (00:01.041)
All right, welcome to this week’s episode for parent problems today. We have a doozy of a conversation. We have three of us in the studio today. So myself, Rob Trout, Paul Arradondo and Mary Zahnbreaker all joining to talk about something that is a big topic amongst parents and families and something that we get into with so many different dynamics. So
To be honest, I don’t even know what direction this is going to completely take, but let’s step right into the question that sparked this whole episode. What if you are your kid’s problem? And God, that goes to so many different parents that bring that topic up, right? Like we, for me, it strikes immediately at that place of apparent.
where they’re worried, like they have this fear that they’re the ones causing all the problem in reality because they’re just guessing at what to do where they just, there’s so much anxiety about being a good parent. And very often there’s a child, right, with a mental health aspect, a borderline personality disorder or something characterized where they’re playing off that fear. In some cases, the kid is telling the parent, right?
Like, oh, if you weren’t here, I’d be great. You’re making my life hell. You’re, so this is a question that has so much legitimacy for the mental health aspect for the parent, but also it’s a legitimate question. Let’s be honest. Like there are dynamics where the parents are getting in the way or creating that model of stress within a family system because.
of so many things that they do kind of supersede into the process with their kid. So let’s get right into it. Paul, Mary, what comes up for you when you hear this? What if you are your kid’s problem when we’re talking to that parent? What’s immediately there? What are we looking at?
Mary (02:14.118)
Yeah, for me, it’s this idea of parents really being in their own story about things and the way things have been and the way things then might go now. And so that in and of itself is a bigger picture. And it also leads to this aspect of the parent being dysregulated, right? So we come into this space, this conversation.
with a child in which we are dysregulated, right? And then because of the way that our brain functions, we actually then dysregulate those around us, right? And so thinking about the ways that we do our own work as parents, right? The ways that we do, we look at
Robert Trout (02:44.127)
I’m not sure if you can hear me. I’m listening. Yes. Yes, it’s loud.
Mary (03:10.374)
a situation with grace and we pause and think about how we’re entering this space before we even open our mouths.
Paul (03:22.826)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it’s fascinating how quickly we can impact those around us, even out of our awareness. You know, I mean, you just said it, Mary, in that framework of even before you open your mouth, you’re impacting. Just think about quickly walking down the hallway and your feet stomping. Your kid is hearing this in his or her bedroom, and they are preparing and kind of looking towards the door and even bracing or even getting ready to.
Robert Trout (03:23.304)
Yeah.
Paul (03:52.222)
have a confrontation because they can just feel you approaching them. And so that idea of setting the kid off, right, because you’re in your agitation, you’re in your discomfort, and you’re trying to get a need met, and you’re trying to support them, but ultimately the impact isn’t actually aligning with the intention of I want to support them and understanding that relationship needs and looks or can look different, but ultimately it’s just the pattern cycling on itself.
Robert Trout (04:14.31)
So, I’m going to go ahead and start with the first question. So, I’m going to start with the first question.
Paul (04:21.542)
of poor communication and agitation in the system.
Robert Trout (04:24.573)
Well, and let me interject on that for a second, because yes, there’s the parent setting up, right, the footsteps down the hall, like the different neurological processes that are in there. But let me back up a second, because I have several families that I’ve had to work through this the other direction, where the kids set up the fight, the parent wasn’t even home. And they went in and either consciously or unconsciously.
Paul (04:35.64)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (04:54.041)
set the stage for whatever is about to happen by going into the kitchen and creating a mess, because that’s what they do to get that parent’s attention maybe, or to get a need met where they’re feeling a lot coming back from school. And this is their venting session is to now have this fight with mom about this thing that’s super trivial, right? So, you know, I hear that and I just want to make sure the parents understand like this goes.
every direction here. Like this topic of what if you are your kid’s problem. For me, I really want to step into this philosophy that we have that it is a system. So it’s not even a judgment like are you your kid’s problem when we get in there to do that work, right? It’s a deconstruction of your kid is doing this. It’s creating a trigger for you and you’re reacting to this. And so we need to look not at what the kid is doing first.
Paul (05:32.334)
I don’t know.
Robert Trout (05:49.229)
we have to look at the reaction first, right? We have to deconstruct that so that you aren’t playing the role that your kids set you up for maybe. And again, that can be totally unconscious, but the kid wanted that interaction because for whatever reason, that pattern developed within the family. But so it could be the kid, it could be the parent, it could be both, it could be the sibling, there’s so many different dynamics, right? So let’s kind of step into
Paul (06:00.418)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (06:14.783)
Right.
Robert Trout (06:18.797)
this idea that let’s look first at the parents that feel guilty. Their kids struggle, they have a mental health issue or an addiction issue or something, right? So let’s just start there. Let’s look at guilt and then we’ll move on to some of the other categories. But when I say parental guilt that sets up a pattern, what do you think about that? When related to this question of the parent, you know, what if?
Paul (06:47.494)
Yeah, I mean, my mind immediately goes to enabling, right? Like the parent steps in too quickly, doesn’t allow the child to self-regulate or believes that they need to be the solution, right? There’s that rescuer problem solver mentality that parents show up with that ultimately gets in the way of their child feeling mature, feeling like they’re an adult, feeling like they’re capable. We deal with a lot of like teens and young adults.
who are trying to claim autonomy, trying to individuate from their parents, but if their parents are stepping in and doing things for them, or telling them how to do the thing in order to move on from whatever discomfort they’re experiencing, they’re just back in the cycle and the pattern of that teen or young adult feeling like a child. And so that’s where the parents get in the way. The parents are just right there too much. That hypervigilance or that guilt
Paul (07:44.478)
I should be more present or I should be the solution or I should be in process with my kid and almost grasping at every single interaction as if it needs to be a process where then it’s not even about a relationship anymore. It’s about trying to like put a bomb to the perception of a wound or something of that nature. So, yeah.
Robert Trout (08:08.103)
So if that guilt is there who created the guilt
Paul (08:18.53)
could come from any direction, right? I mean, look at it through the lens of the drama triangle. I mean, the drama triangle is like, oh, go ahead.
Mary (08:21.33)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (08:21.675)
Right.
Mary (08:24.038)
Right. And I’ve watched so many.
Robert Trout (08:25.089)
Yep.
Mary (08:28.602)
Well, and I’ve actually seen most parents I’ve worked with, you know, at some point kind of have this, this admittance, right? Of like, I just feel so guilty. And I’ve actually seen many times that source of guilt comes from a story within, but it’s very much reinforced by other things from outside of that family even, right?
Robert Trout (08:50.017)
Yeah.
Mary (08:57.134)
that like there’s this message. Yeah, like there’s this message from school sometimes of like, hey, you know, parents get all this feedback from schools about how the kid is doing in school, and then parents take it on themselves and then feel guilty that they can’t be a teacher at home. Many times I have seen other friends giving advice or especially other family members kind of placing some judgment values maybe or some
Robert Trout (08:58.451)
What other things, Mary?
Robert Trout (09:16.217)
These are the things that we need to do. We need to do this.
Mary (09:26.738)
well, this is what I would do or oh, you’re doing this wrong, right? So there’s a lot within the larger system that creates that guilt. And then, yeah, Paul, what you were saying, it feeds into that dynamic, right, of the drama triangle.
Paul (09:42.923)
Uh huh.
Robert Trout (09:45.501)
So Within that for me. I mean guilt shows up in so many different ways Depending on the family, but I’m gonna just jump right to the most severe is Usually where the kid in my experience the kid has reinforced it Once they see that I’m gonna say weakness. That’s probably not the best word, but they see that like big red button
the kid has realized that if they can make the parent feel like that the child’s suffering in whatever story, whatever capacity that is, is in some way their fault. There’s a power dynamic now, right? So this question, what if you are your kid’s problem? Very often I find that I have to remind parents that, hey, you’re the parent. Did you forget what that means?
Paul (10:29.314)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (10:42.609)
You’re the adult. You are the provider. You are the one making the decisions for the space. Not to make up for the past. That’s the trap within the guilt for me with I’m going to say 99% of the families as they look at the past and go, oh, well, I can’t ever make a mistake again. It’s like no, you’re going to make a lot more mistakes because your kids 13. You got a long way to go right now.
Like you can’t make up for, right, quotation marks, you can’t make up for that one time you yelled at them when it didn’t go well. Like that situation can’t be the basis for what happens tomorrow. That could be the situation for therapy or a family process or something that you want to look at and rewrite the story for. But if that becomes a situation of guilt within or that’s internalized,
tomorrow’s screwed because that kid is going to just gain more and more power within the family system and I mean, come on. Let’s be honest I don’t know many teenagers that wouldn’t love to just start sucking on that power and Start getting that new car and that new process or your new phone or new, you know Attention in this way or whatever it might be. So whatever the dynamic the power becomes the problem. So
just continuing to go back to the question, what if you are your kid’s problem? My response to that is, do they have more power than you? Because if they have more power than you in the family system, then the answer to this question is yes, you’re the problem. You have to stop and whether it’s guilt or one of these other categories we’ll get into, we have to look at that power. So let me pass that to you two, like what comes up when I talk about this power?
Mary (12:29.822)
So often I hear the term walking on eggshells. We have been walking on eggshells and whether that’s aggressive outbursts or my kid’s gonna run away if I say the wrong thing, I hear that so often.
Robert Trout (12:45.421)
Yep.
Paul (13:02.87)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or not being able to hold consequences. Right? The kid either manipulates their way out of the consequence, or they bargain or pressure the parents into getting their phone back or having more social freedoms or choosing dinner. I mean, it can be in so many different, like, levels of, like, power grabs. They can be big, like you were saying, getting a car to, I don’t want to go to that place for dinner.
Robert Trout (13:06.681)
Hmm.
Paul (13:31.662)
to, you know, I want to watch something different. You know, that’s why I’m going to go to my room. And you know, that power of like, you don’t have, I’m not going to give you the privilege of relationship with me. That’s a power dynamic. You know, so being able to actually be with them in a process and slow down enough to recognize the dynamics and not get wrapped up in it, right? Don’t, I mean, we talked a little bit about.
Robert Trout (13:45.983)
Yeah.
Paul (13:58.23)
you know, that reactive place that parents can get to when they feel like they’re grasping at straws, you know, and they’re feeling guilty and they’re feeling like the power is non-existent. They don’t know how to hold a boundary or really clarify even what their expectations are. So there’s a spinning that can occur within a family system, especially when the child is resting at the top.
Robert Trout (14:26.216)
Well, I was asked in an interview recently about basically the scenario of
How do you tell the difference between a good parent and a bad parent? And what you were just sharing kind of brought that question up for me, because my answer was kind of in the example of, if I see a parent out in the world, I don’t care, Walmart, grocery store, whatever it might be, and I don’t care how old the kid is. I know we do a lot of tweens, teens, and adults in the work we do, but.
The younger kids are no different in a lot of ways. Like the strategies to get what they want are usually just louder. But I give the drama award to the teens, tweens, and young adults, but the younger kids. And I gave the example of, you know, I understand that seeing a parent that the kid is losing their minds to get that candy bar. You know, let’s say a seven-year-old just.
Paul (15:09.291)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (15:28.749)
lose screaming, losing their minds to get that candy bar. And when I think about good and bad, I have to say, well, it’s not good and bad. It’s about consistency and about power and the understanding of power and relationship. So I just gave the example of like, I’m not gonna say good or bad, but I’m gonna tell you there’s a difference.
On one hand, the parent that looks and they negotiate immediately. You can have a snack later if you just stop screaming now, right? Kids still getting what they want. And sure, like there’s a delayed gratification there. And to me, I have to look at that and say, well, that kid’s learning that if I work like this, I get paid like this, using that adult metaphor we use all the time, right? Like,
This is the exchange that’s now happening. Versus the parent that, to me, I applaud, like I wish I could go up to every one of them and go, hey, I just want you to know you’re doing a great job. Because that parent steps in and goes, you know that we don’t get candy as we go through the aisle. We never have, we’re not going to. This is just something that we don’t do. And that kid’s losing their mind, and the parent stays calm and centered.
and lets them have that emotional experience of not receiving, because guess what? This is the boundary. Like when we talk about boundaries, right? Like they’re not often these solid walls. They’re these learning opportunities, right? So when I, you know, back to the question, what if you are your kid’s problem? I look at that and go, well, that first parent is teaching that kid that they’re…
They’re going to get what they want. It might be a little bit later in that scenario. I mean, how many times have we seen the parent that’s like, fine, just shove it in their mouth and shut up, stop yelling. And for me, I’ve talked to a lot of those parents where they’re, they’re doing that with teenagers like fine. Just take it because they don’t want the social judgment of their kid. Acting bad in front of neighbors and you know, people they go to church with or community or whatever, like whatever their scenario is.
Robert Trout (17:52.333)
That kid is using the dynamic of social structure to get what they want fast and effectively versus the parent that holds that line and goes, actually, you know that we don’t do this. And you’re welcome to have your emotional experience. That parent’s the one I want to applaud. Have your emotional experience. Learn from your emotional experience. And I’m going to make sure you have that opportunity to do that now, because you do need to learn this.
to be a functional adult in life, you need to learn that these lines do actually exist. So I know that’s a long-winded story, but I’m just getting into that dynamic of like, when I look at this question with parents of what if you are your kid’s problem, it comes down to that power, but also that presence of mind of that parent saying, I’m going to let you have your emotional experience and I’m not gonna react.
Paul (18:29.112)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (18:49.721)
to that emotional experience. I’m gonna hold space for this so that the next time you wanna do it, you have the memory that doesn’t work. There’s the power, that’s step one in the dynamic of I am your teacher to get to that place. And God, that’s hard for so many parents right now because the outbursts are being filmed.
Paul (19:12.512)
so hard.
Robert Trout (19:16.769)
by 50 people in Walmart and going on TikTok and going viral. It’s like, okay, yeah, like we have to withstand a lot now, a lot of scrutiny, a lot of eyes. And those eyes are now on cameras that lead to sometimes millions of other eyes that are looking at it. But there really is this like, what if you are your kid’s problem? Okay, take a breath.
You have to consciously decide to be the teacher in that process. So I’ll pause there and throw it back to you two. Like what comes up from all that?
Paul (19:57.826)
The capacity to slow down is like the biggest challenge, right? Because we’re not just working with the kids, we’re working as caregivers, as parents, with our own internal process too. We bring our history to the table. And this is something that we briefly touched on before we jumped and hit record, is that recognition that parents have a lot of work to do. You know, you’re not just raising your kids, you’re raising yourself in the process. You know, being able to understand your own patterns of reactivity is going to…
you in slowing the moment down to then manage your child’s reactivity. And that’s a heavy lifting for anybody, right? Even aunts and uncles and siblings for that matter. Like everybody’s doing heavy lifting when we recognize that there is just heightened emotions when you’re working with somebody who’s in distress, you know, the kid throwing the temper tantrum about the candy bar.
we understand that their brain is not developed enough to be resilient and slow down and think rationally and understand about even delayed gratification, if anything, right? And so we have to be the anchor in that moment. We have to be able to slow ourselves down to then help their nervous system have something to regulate with to slow themselves down, right? And so these are all skills that we have in our curriculum and can dive into deeper and direct conversation, but just to…
Offer out, have a process of slowing down. You mentioned just take some deep breaths, be able to create some space for yourself. Because more often than not, it’s not a life or death moment. There is an opportunity to pause. And that actually starts with us as caregivers, us as parents.
Robert Trout (22:10.805)
The next. That’s the 10. Next. The fourth. The last. The fifth. The sixth.
Robert Trout (23:16.022)
Yes. I think to me you just touched on the primary skill I think we would talk about, right? Like if we were going to turn this episode into the, well, what do you do about this? Well, you create decisions for yourself.
You work on your regulation so that they can regulate off of you. And then you become consistent. You become dedicated to the outcome to change the behavior. And I talk with families all the time around, this is not a short game. You don’t get to say no once after saying yes.
Even if they, you know, oh, well, I held my ground for 30 minutes and then I gave in because I just wanted the kid to shut up. Yeah, like no, that doesn’t count. That 30 minutes is gone wasted. It doesn’t because what they learned is, oh, well, I’ll just skip to whatever I did at minute 28. First for the kid, right? Their strategies the first 27 minutes that didn’t work.
I’m just gonna start over here. And that’s why we see that increase in dramatic behavior as kids get older and older is because they’re moving the needle. Each time they find that line, that strategy that works for whatever it is they’re looking for. So we have to start at wherever the needle actually is and then start moving it back. And really that self-regulation, Paul, that you were talking about, the co-regulation.
Paul (24:50.351)
Uh huh.
Robert Trout (24:54.953)
is the key to that because you can’t just go in and now be hard like we have that saying, right? Hard easy, easy hard. If you start hard and you hold those boundaries and those lines and you teach and you educate and you develop a system of consistency around subjects and behaviors, etc., your life becomes easier.
But if you’re easy up front, like, oh, I really want you to like me and do we, I don’t want to fight and all my head hurts. I just go away, take whatever you want. Right? Like that easy access to whatever it is in the beginning leads to a hard fight. And that, because those battles are more extensive and longer. And I mean, let’s be honest, very often now we’re into the teenage years where they’re getting bigger than you. There’s all kinds of things with like physical hierarchy and, um,
Strength and all that kind of stuff that now become factors that parents just they didn’t consider when the kid was seven years old Like all this. I mean, whatever he can just have it Well now he’s 13 and he’s 230 pounds and six foot four Now we’re talking about a completely new game where in very often in our work, right? We find okay. It’s time for intervention
This isn’t just about you anymore because the parents did let the structure go to the place of the power dynamic is not balanced And not shifted in the parents direction at all the kids really learned everything they need to do to now take off for their Individuation however that individuation very often starts to show up as depression anxiety and sometimes physical threat and
intimidation techniques and my favorite is, you can’t tell me what to do. And so often the parent goes, oh, maybe I can’t tell him what to do anymore. Well, if you’re at that point, that’s where we step into that consistency where it’s like, okay, don’t tell him, show him. Make it real that the system doesn’t pay him for the actions and behaviors and outcomes that
Robert Trout (27:09.081)
child is looking for. And that consistency is the primary tool for the family system to start to remold or become moldable in the first place. And it might require intervention, let’s be honest. At a certain point, the family’s lost enough power that it’s time for that kid to show up in a new space to receive treatment or therapeutic help or whatever it might be, where it’s like, okay, we need to shake.
shake the system, start over, and the parents need to realign.
Paul (27:43.166)
Yeah, and we’ve been talking about, you know, the teen or the young adult who is who gets big. But it’s worth mentioning that there’s the other side of the spectrum of behavior where they’re completely collapsed and they’re in their bed. Right. And you know, coming in heavy handed in that regard and trying to pull them out of bed or get them to talk to you or have a process or get to treatment or get outside. Get off your screen. You know, those are
Robert Trout (27:44.121)
So.
Robert Trout (27:50.252)
Yeah.
Robert Trout (27:57.144)
Yes.
Paul (28:12.322)
sometimes even more challenging, you know, to be able to finesse your way back into their life and like develop the communication skills and stay self-regulated in the face of them shutting you down and shutting you out just with their silence or their turned gaze, you know, there’s a lot of subtlety to how you hold expectation and boundaries when you’re working with somebody who has just like the great capacity or maybe a real lack of capacity.
to show up in a moment or to shut down in a moment. So, yeah.
Robert Trout (28:48.849)
All right, so let’s pause for a moment and come back to this in just a minute.
Part 2
Robert Trout (00:02.376)
So there are multiple levels to looking at those kids from both angles, right? Like you’re right, Paul, we have the kids that are physically intimidating and use their bodies and force, et cetera, as they get older and older, try to force to get what they want. And part of that is that individuation, a part of it is family dynamic and a huge part of it is hierarchy systems, right? But you’re right, there are the young adults that they don’t get out of bed, they fail out of college,
can’t get their lives moving. And very often, you can look at the system where they were rescued from that stress of dealing with real life over and over again. Or they were the kid that always got the candy bar, right? And then they got out in the world, and they want a different work schedule at work, and they can’t get it. So they quit. And they keep.
Paul (00:56.756)
Hmm.
Robert Trout (00:57.352)
burning bridges sometimes. These are just some examples. There’s so many different examples, but just for any parent that’s listening out there, there’s so many dynamics to consider about your kid and what’s going on for them. But again, going back to, you know, what if you are your kid’s problem? Well, really it’s that power dynamic, that consistency, that open-mindedness to look at what’s going on for them with their psychological needs, their emotional needs.
etc. But that doesn’t mean step in and take care of them. Can we be clear about that? It doesn’t mean step in and do everything for them to make their lives easier. In fact, very often the solution that parents are looking for is the exact opposite. You have to make their lives something that they feel
is accomplishable and once accomplished it builds that self-efficacy and that self-esteem and that process of I found a way out. There’s that individuation, right? That kid became a teenager and they solved a problem and they feel good about solving that problem and yes, oh my god, I get it, parent, you’re out there right now and you’re like, well, I could have solved it 10 times faster and it wouldn’t have cost that much money and you know all that kind of stuff.
Paul (01:59.476)
Hmm.
Paul (02:05.696)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (02:16.68)
You’re right. But guess what? You’re 38, 48, 50. You’re you’ve lived so long that you’ve solved problems far more complicated than whatever your teenager was just trying to solve. But the point of this is, is that if you solved it for them, Newsflash, you’re the problem.
Let’s let that sink in for a second. Your kid needed to solve whatever the problem was in a fashion that was within their scope of understanding, their personality, their idea of what, you know, the dynamics needed to look like to solve the problem, because they’re not you. Their problem solving techniques is, in my experience, almost never, it’s not.
Never, but almost never, exactly like the parents would have solved whatever they’re trying to work through. Right? So, God, there’s so many dynamics in that. It’s like, you know, I don’t want to ever say the parents the problem. I usually always look at the power and the system to look for the dynamics that create the outcome that they don’t want anymore. Right? So
Paul (03:16.5)
Uh huh.
Paul (03:22.305)
Yeah.
Paul (03:36.11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Robert Trout (03:38.468)
If that’s what’s there, okay, hold on, let’s back up and look at the example I just gave. Sometimes you are the problem. Or your trigger, your solution, your pattern is interfering with success for your child. So that doesn’t mean ultimately that you’re the problem, but your response reaction or
Process is the problem for your child’s development, education, and, I mean, let’s face it, their outcome on multiple levels, socially, financially, family systems, relationally, emotionally, you know, there’s so many areas to consider with that. So no, you’re probably not the problem for who you are as a person.
Paul (04:11.2)
Uh huh.
Paul (04:26.51)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Trout (04:37.908)
Your reactions may be causing this. It may have almost nothing to do with your child, but it’s everything to do with the container that you created for them. So you have to look at that. If you want this to change, you have to suck it up that you created a container and say, as a parent, I want to learn, train, educate myself to be different so that my child can be different. And that’s the key for me. It’s always gonna come down to that.
Paul (04:48.651)
Right.
Robert Trout (05:06.404)
If you want your child to be different, you have to start being different first. First.
Paul (05:06.731)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (05:10.614)
Yeah, a simple entry point into that kind of understanding what change can look like, can actually, if we kind of flip it on its head a little bit and go, all right, I’m trying to grow a healthy adult. I’m trying to launch somebody at 18 who’s capable, who’s resilient, who has a capacity to function in the world, who’s discerning, who can problem solve themselves, who can rescue themselves.
Because as you said, Rob, if we’re doing it for them, they’re not actually learning that skill. So if you want them to launch out at 18 in a good way, what is the image of that healthy 18 year old? And then reverse engineer yourself back to whatever age your kid’s actually at and go, what’s the path to get them there? And if they’re already beyond 18, you know, okay, so what does my child need to do or…
Robert Trout (05:41.634)
Yep.
Paul (06:04.618)
what would I like to see of my child in order for me to feel confident to kind of like encourage them to get out of the house, take that next step for themselves. Again, individuation and autonomy. That’s the idea of, you know, healthy young adult, right? And obviously the capacity in all the ways that you just spoke to Rob. Creating the space for them to learn the lessons, giving them the opportunity to have life experience and doing it within a container. You’re not just like cutting them loose on the world at 14 years old.
You’re setting a container, and as we’ve been talking about with this conversation, having clear expectations, being consistent, creating space for them to develop insight and discernment and learn lessons without you stepping in and again derailing the process. Because if you’re stepping in too quickly or you’re being the solution or problem-solving, yeah, you’re the problem. You’re not going to have an 18-year-old who’s functional.
